Informational Stapling Compass to Delta Website

[ACL65PILOT]

Simple. As a 15 year CA at ASA you expect to hold a CRJ A slot. As a FO here at DAL I expect to hold 777A. Those are the expectations.
I know you do not like that, but that is the way that it is.
That is why CPZ is a unique situation. This banter is just that.
I am not going to argue the past with you.
With all of the energy you spend ripping ALPA a new one, don't you think you could channel it and put it to good use. You seem to have all of the answers.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Simple. As a 15 year CA at ASA you expect to hold a CRJ A slot. As a FO here at DAL I expect to hold 777A. Those are the expectations.
I know you do not like that, but that is the way that it is.

Simple? OK...How about Delta merging with Midwest or Air Tran....Using your logic, they should just be stapled....Is that your position?

In addition, using your logic, do you "expect to hold a CL900 captain seat?

I agree that I have absolutely NO expectation of holding a B777 captain seat....I wonder why you have an expectation of holding a 700/900 seat....Double standard maybe?

That is why CPZ is a unique situation. This banter is just that.
I am not going to argue the past with you.
With all of the energy you spend ripping ALPA a new one, don't you think you could channel it and put it to good use. You seem to have all of the answers.

You are the one that seems to have all the answers...I used to be an ALPA cheerleader, but forgive me if I've seen the light...ALPA first started giving lip service to the scope issue in 1995....and now 14 years later we are still having the same debates and are further apart then we were then...I am not impressed.....

 

[ACL65PILOT]

What do MEH and AAI fly Joe? IMHO airframes that have comparable pay and seat size. As with AS I would expect those guys to be slotted in with pilots with similar seniority in the stove pipe effect.
Hence 73N and the m88, and 717. Those guys expect to be a 717 A, etc. They will get to be a 777A but they will not go ahead of someone that is occupying their current seat in a stove pipe.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

Joe's about as thick as anyone out there. At least his ignorance is actually helping our cause in garnering support.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Concurrent resolutions in Councils 1 and 20 would go a long way to shoring this up.

Does anyone want to carry this ball in MSP and/or DTW?

Nu

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

I think superpilot is presenting it in MEM and supposedly CPZ has a resolution rising through their ranks to support our version (so long as someone doesnt start grabbing for stuff).

I'll make some phone calls to some of my n-dub buddies in DTW and see if someone want's in.

 

[PCL_128]

What do MEH and AAI fly Joe? IMHO airframes that have comparable pay and seat size. As with AS I would expect those guys to be slotted in with pilots with similar seniority in the stove pipe effect.
Hence 73N and the m88, and 717. Those guys expect to be a 717 A, etc. They will get to be a 777A but they will not go ahead of someone that is occupying their current seat in a stove pipe.

Well said. Joe always wants to push this ridiculous "W2 integration" method, in which SLI is done by comparing W2s and slotting pilots in with similar W2 wages. Of course, this ridiculous method would slot a bunch of senior RJ lifers in front of a bunch of mainline FOs. He completely ignores the fact that the career expectations of an RJ lifer are to fly his RJ for the rest of his life.

I think you guys have a great idea on the CPZ integration. I hope everyone realizes that it will definitely take significant bargaining leverage, but I also think it will produce real dividends in recapturing lost flying. This could be the first step in fixing the outsourcing nightmare. Good luck.

 

[SpauldingSmails]

It was my understanding some of the CMR guys wanted DOH or something rediculous like that. Am I off base here?


CPZ would be a strict staple job, or no go.

I don't think you'd find any opposition within the CPZ pilot ranks regarding a strict staple. The expectation was to hopefully one day flow up into Delta, a staple to us is just the guarantee... a guarantee we'd be mighty grateful to have.

 

[FDJ2]

Not true....I've stated that IF you choose to want a staple, then I will shoot for DOH...neither is fair in this situation...

Joe, during the recent DAL/NWA integraqtion you said the appropriate form is seniority integration at ALPA ought to be DOH.

But now we also have you on record stating that you thought you ought to be senior to some Delta pilots if you were integrated.

 

[FDJ2]

I don't think you'd find any opposition within the CPZ pilot ranks regarding a strict staple. The expectation was to hopefully one day flow up into Delta, a staple to us is just the guarantee... a guarantee we'd be mighty grateful to have.

If Joe Merchant and the RJDC seniority thieves had been as reasonable and realistic adecade ago perhaps progres could have been made on this over the last 10 years.

 

[Smarta$$]

How will this actually "meaningfully" help the situation? It is 36 RJs out 500. It is a drop in the bucket. Would it not allow them to simply outsource some additional RJ's. Since the 36 moved to Delta would no longer be calculated in the outsourced total.

It is unfortunate that there is no push to recapture ALL RJ flying. And don't tell me that this is a good start. It will likely be the end of any significant effort. It is very transparent. The 175 simply "looks" like it fits in. In your opinion the CR2-7-9 don't, and therefor you will not waist any energy recapturing the inferior flying.

Prove me wrong.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

You may not have that level of patience.
We scope based on seats. Not airframes. That is what others that are fighting us want. Type Certificate scope.
If that happens your dreams of a major airline job will be gone for at least another 10 years.
Every RJ you see is one less jet at mainline. That is 10 bodies.

 

[sinkrate]

I have no 'dog in this fight' but it has always amazed me how pilots completely miss the financial side of the equation. Pinnacle was owned by NW at one time too and then spun off in an IPO. At the time of the IPO PCL was 30% of NW domestic capacity. That IPO eventually paid over 600 million to NW. Pinnacle's pilots would have had to work for free for a long time to match that. Part of that 600 million was used to fund NW pension plans and that bought the NW pilots off. It is a classic Dick Anderson exercise.

He is starting to turn his attention to the 'regional' side of the operation at the new Delta and the picture of the future is starting to come clear. With 'Regional Handling Services' taking over ground handling for the majority of the DCI network the DCI carriers will become essentially ACMI contractors. Ground handling has been the highest profit margin part of the regional business. Maybe DAL will keep it, maybe they will spin it off like they did Global. There will be a big payday if they do.

What will Anderson do with all the ACMI 'regional' carriers he owns? He has bought and sold Mesaba before. NW bought it once again at a fire sale when the opportunity unexpectedly presented itself. When Compass was formed NW made it clear it would eventually be sold in an IPO. His problem is CMR. He has to find a way to unload a property no one wants. It could be merged into one of the other ACMI carriers. More likely it will be parted out with the 70+ seat AC, and possibly some 50 seat AC, going to Mesaba. This will significantly increase the value of an IPO. The rump of CMR will then be slowly whittled away. When the RAH contract with DAL expires those AC will be replaced with new 175's placed at Compass.

How ever it works out, there will eventually be at least two IPO's. Compass, with 72 ERJ's and a long term service agreement is valued by Wall Street at around 750 million. Mesaba's IPO will be in that ball park too. That's 1.5 billion pilots will need to pony up if they want to put these jobs on the DAL seniority list.

If they aren't willing to pay that, and I doubt they are, they need to start thinking of new structures and agreements that will address each pilot group's needs. The DAL pilots will need to create a real relationship with the 'regional' MEC's and the CMR and Mesaba pilots will need to learn to get a long.

I'm glad I don't 'have a dog in that fight'.

 

[Superpilot92]

I think superpilot is presenting it in MEM and supposedly CPZ has a resolution rising through their ranks to support our version (so long as someone doesnt start grabbing for stuff).

I'll make some phone calls to some of my n-dub buddies in DTW and see if someone want's in.

I have sent it to my reps and gone back and forth with them on this but i cant be there at the MEM meeting. I am flying but I am trying to find someone who can be there and will take a proxy for me.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

FWIW, DGS is now part of DAL again. They rolled em back in.

 

[FSIGRAD]

I have no 'dog in this fight' but it has always amazed me how pilots completely miss the financial side of the equation. Pinnacle was owned by NW at one time too and then spun off in an IPO. At the time of the IPO PCL was 30% of NW domestic capacity. That IPO eventually paid over 600 million to NW. Pinnacle's pilots would have had to work for free for a long time to match that. Part of that 600 million was used to fund NW pension plans and that bought the NW pilots off. It is a classic Dick Anderson exercise.

He is starting to turn his attention to the 'regional' side of the operation at the new Delta and the picture of the future is starting to come clear. With 'Regional Handling Services' taking over ground handling for the majority of the DCI network the DCI carriers will become essentially ACMI contractors. Ground handling has been the highest profit margin part of the regional business. Maybe DAL will keep it, maybe they will spin it off like they did Global. There will be a big payday if they do.

What will Anderson do with all the ACMI 'regional' carriers he owns? He has bought and sold Mesaba before. NW bought it once again at a fire sale when the opportunity unexpectedly presented itself. When Compass was formed NW made it clear it would eventually be sold in an IPO. His problem is CMR. He has to find a way to unload a property no one wants. It could be merged into one of the other ACMI carriers. More likely it will be parted out with the 70+ seat AC, and possibly some 50 seat AC, going to Mesaba. This will significantly increase the value of an IPO. The rump of CMR will then be slowly whittled away. When the RAH contract with DAL expires those AC will be replaced with new 175's placed at Compass.

How ever it works out, there will eventually be at least two IPO's. Compass, with 72 ERJ's and a long term service agreement is valued by Wall Street at around 750 million. Mesaba's IPO will be in that ball park too. That's 1.5 billion pilots will need to pony up if they want to put these jobs on the DAL seniority list.

If they aren't willing to pay that, and I doubt they are, they need to start thinking of new structures and agreements that will address each pilot group's needs. The DAL pilots will need to create a real relationship with the 'regional' MEC's and the CMR and Mesaba pilots will need to learn to get a long.

I'm glad I don't 'have a dog in that fight'.

I thinks this makes the point you guys are missing. CPZ was built up to be "sold" that is the whole point. This is straight out of NWA's tired old playbook, just blow the dust off it.

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

CPZ can't be sold. If CPZ is sold, there are very strict penalties involved. I barked up this tree many times when CPZ was being created.


As far as us not caring about the CRJ2-9.... that is very short sighted. Notice that we aren't vying for the RAH 170/5's yet either? These are first steps!

 

[samballs]

I see why everyone at DL would like this, but why would anyone at Compass want to be stapled to DL. When DL furloughs all at Compass will be on the steet and DL pilots will be in those seats for a long time

 

[NuGuy]

I see why everyone at DL would like this, but why would anyone at Compass want to be stapled to DL. When DL furloughs all at Compass will be on the steet and DL pilots will be in those seats for a long time

Hate to tell you, but this what happens anyway...

Nu

 

[SpauldingSmails]

...and at least we'd have a guaranteed slot at DL one day.