For All You FLOPS BJ Pilots, a little memory lane action

[B19 Flyer]

What I mean is I have the final authority. That is written in the regs. It's like saying you are charged with parking your car in your own garage. You jealous neighbor hates it, but it's legal. Or, "christians against Christ".....it just don't make sence.

I dont know, Ive been flying for 30+ years and when I write something up it gets fixed. No questions asked. Of all the crap out there, the one thing management learned from me is dont fck with me on saftey and write ups.

Maybe it's something else but I've never had any problems writing up planes.

All I'm doing broke is letting you know that when a work slowdown happens that's how they trend it and pin the guys/unions to the wall. Lists like this are poison to use in a union action and don't help a soul.

 

[Hobbes]

Engine plug?

The problem was whether it was "bad luck" or incompetence, the real problem was the attempted cover-up/failure to report it, which could have jeopardized another crews safety! Quite frankly if what I heard is true, he should be outed by name!

Engine plug Ed may be outed by name, who knows? Bottom line is he acted EXTREMELY irresponsibly with relation to regs, common sense, all accepted safety practices, and management seemed to turn a blind eye.

 

[993_Pilot]

Engine plug Ed may be outed by name, who knows? Bottom line is he acted EXTREMELY irresponsibly with relation to regs, common sense, all accepted safety practices, and management seemed to turn a blind eye.

Remember the days when "Earl the Pearl" flew around for about three days having to manually extend the gear in the Challenger because it wouldn't come down the normal way? When KC found out about it, he was immediately fired. KC was the only "management pilot" that actually respected the regs as well as the rank & file pilot. It's too bad he found a better job, I miss those days!

 

[Hobbes]

Earl the dunce...

Yeah, I remember that all too well...and another good pilot got screwed over by that after mx asked him to return the plane directly to CGF gear down, but never issued a ferry permit...

These are the kinds of idiots mgmt (INCLUDING people like B19) love to use and abuse until they are cornered and then they will discipline them and wash their own hands. You think Flops mismanagement team had no idea how often and flagrantly Earl would break both the regs and common safety practices? Sh!t just look at his logged time...25-28 days in a row flying trips...Duty days in the range of 15-20 hours regularly...How often would he write things up?

Just like B19 will try to instill fear in those not cauterized against it that they will somehow be targeted for writing things up...a good inspector from the FAA will catch people like Earl, Ed, and others who always seem to show up at a maintenance base with everything breaking all at once.

Bottom line - if it is broke, or appears broke - write it up and get it examined before flight...that is not a slowdown campaign, that is your J.O.B. If the mechanic signs it off airworthy and you agree, then fly...if you disagree, the be a man and DISAGREE and get more info before you go airborne.

 

[Tristar]

Sorry this is late in coming, but I just found this rather entertaining thread. I just can't believe you all have left this one for me:

Originally Posted by brokeflyer
dude you need to go get yourself laid....it'll do ya a lotta good.

To which Skanza replied:

ok--meet me by the dumpster.

Why, is that where you usually wait on your knees?

I'm rather amused at the permutations Skeezer and D19 go to attempting to justify why a pilot is not permitted to write an item up which is apparently not airworthy. It just goes to prove that there are always dirtballs who will fly any piece of junk for anything (or nothing).

 

[B19 Flyer]

I encourage you to play those silly union games

Sorry this is late in coming, but I just found this rather entertaining thread. I just can't believe you all have left this one for me:

To which Skanza replied:
Why, is that where you usually wait on your knees?

I'm rather amused at the permutations Skeezer and D19 go to attempting to justify why a pilot is not permitted to write an item up which is apparently not airworthy. It just goes to prove that there are always dirtballs who will fly any piece of junk for anything (or nothing).

Once again, I encourage you to play those silly union games. I have never stated that an item shouldn't be written up if it's unairworthy.

Now, when airworthy items are written up as un-airworthy using standards not created by the company or the manufacturer (the ones that detirmine the intended use) it does create a different scenario and isn't that what we are really talking about here?

Those that love to abuse their PIC rights are entitled to be trended and sanctioned by the company and the courts. All I'm doing is giving you the inside story on how they are going to catch you.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Yeah, I remember that all too well...and another good pilot got screwed over by that after mx asked him to return the plane directly to CGF gear down, but never issued a ferry permit...

These are the kinds of idiots mgmt (INCLUDING people like B19) love to use and abuse until they are cornered and then they will discipline them and wash their own hands. You think Flops mismanagement team had no idea how often and flagrantly Earl would break both the regs and common safety practices? Sh!t just look at his logged time...25-28 days in a row flying trips...Duty days in the range of 15-20 hours regularly...How often would he write things up?

Just like B19 will try to instill fear in those not cauterized against it that they will somehow be targeted for writing things up...a good inspector from the FAA will catch people like Earl, Ed, and others who always seem to show up at a maintenance base with everything breaking all at once.

Bottom line - if it is broke, or appears broke - write it up and get it examined before flight...that is not a slowdown campaign, that is your J.O.B. If the mechanic signs it off airworthy and you agree, then fly...if you disagree, the be a man and DISAGREE and get more info before you go airborne.

Spoken like the hero you are.

 

[Hobbes]

Hear, hear!

Spoken like the hero you are.

That's the first credible sentence I have ever seen you post. Nice job. Build on that and you may be on the road to recovery. Baby steps though buddy...if you pay real close attention, someday you MAY start to see some sense.

 

[skanza]

watch out, I'm quoting B19..oh no!!!

Once again, I encourage you to play those silly union games. I have never stated that an item shouldn't be written up if it's unairworthy.

Now, when airworthy items are written up as un-airworthy using standards not created by the company or the manufacturer (the ones that detirmine the intended use) it does create a different scenario and isn't that what we are really talking about here?

Those that love to abuse their PIC rights are entitled to be trended and sanctioned by the company and the courts. All I'm doing is giving you the inside story on how they are going to catch you.

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I have not ever suggested not to write something up that is broken. Rather, not to write something up that isn't broken. You all know it happens, look in the mirror. And as far as carrying squawks goes: waiting until you get to a MX base is as bad as waiting until you are at a place where you know there's no MX then writing it up. You all know the latter happens too. Where you are, how the union negotiations are going, and your hate for managment should have no bearing on what, if anything, gets written up. But again, you all know this happens too.
Typical.

 

[skanza]

lol.....funny stuff there.

Since im an A&P as well, I can determine airworthiness....mmmuuuhhhaaa

Well, you may be an A&P, but your capacity with the company is ATP. Having an A&P doesn't automatically allow you to perform maintenance and determine airworthiness, especially on a 135 aircraft. You should know that, Mr. Mechanic.

 

[brokeflyer]

Well, you may be an A&P, but your capacity with the company is ATP. Having an A&P doesn't automatically allow you to perform maintenance and determine airworthiness, especially on a 135 aircraft. You should know that, Mr. Mechanic.

i AM the one who decides if the plane is airworthy, once again listen up. Ill explain it one more time.

If everything on the plane is working or within the MEL then the plane plane flies. I make that decision.

If something is broken or out of limitations, then the plane don't fly. I make that decsion.

Each flight will fall under one of the above, that is decided by me regardless of where we are.

Understand? I can't really make it anymore simple so just say "yes, I understand now thanks" and have a nice day.

 

[fischman]

That's pretty much what I'm saying. I have not ever suggested not to write something up that is broken. Rather, not to write something up that isn't broken. You all know it happens, look in the mirror. And as far as carrying squawks goes: waiting until you get to a MX base is as bad as waiting until you are at a place where you know there's no MX then writing it up. You all know the latter happens too. Where you are, how the union negotiations are going, and your hate for management should have no bearing on what, if anything, gets written up. But again, you all know this happens too.
Typical.

So it took 23 pages and 339 posts and you finally figured it out? Good for you!!!

No one EVER said ANYTHING about writing up airworthy items. As a matter of fact, if you go back to the beginning of the thread I believe I posted "Never do anything illegal FOR or AGAINST the company."

 

[fischman]

I can't really make it anymore simple so just say "yes, I understand now thanks" and have a nice day.

Yes. I understand now. Thanks. :beer:

 

[B19 Flyer]

i AM the one who decides if the plane is airworthy, once again listen up. Ill explain it one more time.

If everything on the plane is working or within the MEL then the plane plane flies. I make that decision.

If something is broken or out of limitations, then the plane don't fly. I make that decsion.

Each flight will fall under one of the above, that is decided by me regardless of where we are.

Understand? I can't really make it anymore simple so just say "yes, I understand now thanks" and have a nice day.

Yep, and chalk another one up on the trend list. Just don't whine when you get fired and the judge supports the company. You knew it was coming.

You explain to the judge how the all powerful PIC has the right to apply subjective definitions to the items on this list and ignore those of the manufacturer.

 

[brokeflyer]

read my post again.....

your apology will be accepted.

 

[fischman]

Yep, and chalk another one up on the trend list. Just don't whine when you get fired and the judge supports the company. You knew it was coming.

You explain to the judge how the all powerful PIC has the right to apply subjective definitions to the items on this list and ignore those of the manufacturer.

Better to be fired than dead.

I wouldn't want to work for a company that operates like that anyway.

 

[B19 Flyer]

Better to be fired than dead.

I wouldn't want to work for a company that operates like that anyway.

and I wouldn't want a pilot using his opinion rather than than that of the designer to detirmine the airworthiness of a piece of equipment.

Guys like you fischman are unsafe because you place your own standards on items that you didn't design or understand. It works both ways.

If you apply your own standards to detirmine how an an item works, can you be trusted to really know when an item DOESN'T work as designed?

Because you say so?

Wrong answer and proves that you really don't have a clue as to what is safe or operating properly.

Guys like you that operate outside of the manufacturer's standards are more unsafe than those that do and shouldn't be flying.

 

[imacdog]

Unfortunately for your argument B, erring on the side of caution enhances aviation safety and is what professional pilots, not union busters like you, get paid for. Keep grasping at straws though, you're doing a great job.

 

[fischman]

and I wouldn't want a pilot using his opinion rather than than that of the designer to detirmine the airworthiness of a piece of equipment.

Guys like you fischman are unsafe because you place your own standards on items that you didn't design or understand. It works both ways.

If you apply your own standards to detirmine how an an item works, can you be trusted to really know when an item DOESN'T work as designed?

Because you say so?

Wrong answer and proves that you really don't have a clue as to what is safe or operating properly.

Guys like you that operate outside of the manufacturer's standards are more unsafe than those that do and shouldn't be flying.

That's funny.

So I'm unsafe because I choose NOT to fly when I'm unsure of the airworthiness of an item?

That's really funny! I can't wait to hear the spin on this one.

 

[B19 Flyer]

That's funny.

So I'm unsafe because I choose NOT to fly when I'm unsure of the airworthiness of an item?

That's really funny! I can't wait to hear the spin on this one.

You think it's funny. I think it's arrogant that you apply your own standards instead of company and industry standards.

If you apply your own standards to say that it's not airworthy, how do you know when it is airworthy?

What a joke you are... you're unsafe fischman....

 

[B19 Flyer]

Unfortunately for your argument B, erring on the side of caution enhances aviation safety and is what professional pilots, not union busters like you, get paid for. Keep grasping at straws though, you're doing a great job.

How do you detirmine if something is working correctly or not? You go by a list on the internet or do you actually use the approved AFM? The list beginning this post has many subjective items on it.

Company and industry standards are the ONLY standards that exist. Anything outside of that is the work of a pure amateur. This has nothing to do with unions, it's all about being professionial.

Your arguments just show that you guys have agendas and that takes precedence over being pro pilots.

 

[fischman]

You think it's funny. I think it's arrogant that you apply your own standards instead of company and industry standards.

If you apply your own standards to say that it's not airworthy, how do you know when it is airworthy?

What a joke you are... you're unsafe fischman....

I still don't understand how I'm "unsafe" because I would choose NOT to fly if I'm unsure as to the airworthiness of something?

If I'm the joke, how come you're the one being sooo funny?

 

[brokeflyer]

just leave it fisch....he don't get it. Don't waste your time.

 

[fischman]

just leave it fisch....he don't get it. Don't waste your time.

I have to admit that the absurdity of his statement has me enthralled.

 

[1folinepilot]

How do you detirmine if something is working correctly or not? You go by a list on the internet or do you actually use the approved AFM? The list beginning this post has many subjective items on it.

Company and industry standards are the ONLY standards that exist. Anything outside of that is the work of a pure amateur. This has nothing to do with unions, it's all about being professionial.

Your arguments just show that you guys have agendas and that takes precedence over being pro pilots.

Bob, for once you said somthing logical. Net Jets have the industry standard contract while the wages and company standards that the Flight Options pilots work under are just pure amature. When are you going to sign the contract and treat the Flight Option pilots as professionals?

 

[B19 Flyer]

Bob, for once you said somthing logical. Net Jets have the industry standard contract while the wages and company standards that the Flight Options pilots work under are just pure amature. When are you going to sign the contract and treat the Flight Option pilots as professionals?

No, Netjets does NOT have the industry standard contract. They have the industry LEADING contract, which translates to the most EXPENSIVE contract.

If Netjets had the industry standard contract, then everybody would be paid their wages.

The last aviation unions that negotiated "industry leading contracts" also had their companies go into bankruptcy as a result and took a lot of innocent jobs and people with them.

Those with industry standard contracts faired much better. For those at NJ, I hope it doesn't happen, but when the correction occurs, that industry leading contract is going to also lead the industry in the adjustment. Other unions will never come up to the numbers of Netjets, but the NJ numbers will come down to the rest of the industry.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You can't have it both ways.

I still don't understand how I'm "unsafe" because I would choose NOT to fly if I'm unsure as to the airworthiness of something?

If I'm the joke, how come you're the one being sooo funny?

Fischman, you haven't answered the question. (not unusual), but I think your egotisical attitude is one that is unsafe.

You state above that you don't understand because you choose NOT to fly if you are unsure about the airworthiness of an item.

What I am saying, is by you applying your own standards rather than industry standards, it is likely that you would operate an unsafe airplane with an item that is airworthy by your standards and not airworthy by industry standards.

If your standards are not the same as the company or industry standards, how does anybody know if something that YOU deem is airworthy is actually airworthy or not?

You state if you are not comfortable with an airplane it's your right not to fly it.

But industry standard is not YOUR comfort zone, it's industry standards, your comfort zone is meaningless.

So, the question once again is... if you apply your standards to determine if something is not airworthy, how does anybody know that your standards are sufficient to determine if something is airworthy?

It's got nothing to do with grounding an airplane, it's the set of standards that you choose to use. That's what makes you an amateur and unsafe.

You can't have it both ways.

 

[1folinepilot]

Bob, Since, Citation Shares and Flexjet chose to match/exceed the pay of Netjets that makes the Netjets contract the industry standard. What you give the Flight Options pilots is completely laughable with wages that don't even keep up with inflation. When you further compare it to the actual hours a Flight Options pilot flies compared to Netjets, Citation Shares or Flexjet, the Flight Options pilot makes even less because they constantly fly more per month. Since you are constantly comparing the fractionals to the 121 carriers, guess how the Flight Options pilots compare with salary and work rules? You are right, the bottom of the list! Why do you fear paying your employees a fair wage and giving them the protection of a fair labor contract?

 

[fischman]

No, Netjets does NOT have the industry standard contract. They have the industry LEADING contract, which translates to the most EXPENSIVE contract.

NetJets has the ONLY industry contract genius.

 

[fischman]

You state if you are not comfortable with an airplane it's your right not to fly it.

Good. You finally figured it out.