Delta Pilots Association - DPA

[Superpilot92]

Gentlemen,

I am hearing more and more talk about this and I am wondering what everyones thoughts are. I am by no means an alpa hater but I to have come to realize that alpa has lost it's focus. They can't represent the mainline pilots and the regional pilots best interests at the same time unless we're all on one list. For instance if alpa fights for scope protection for mainline pilots then they would be misrepresenting the regional pilots.

Alpa is a good team in your corner if they actually act like a union and not a business. Unfortunatly that's not the case anymore. We have sat back and watched our industry get torn down long enough. AA has APA and their interests are soley on their pilot group and what they have control over. By doing so they have maintained the highest rates while keeping their pensions and protecting their scope With 12000+ pilots now at DAL we would have one hell of a union if it was in House.

Again, alpa as an organization isn't really the problem but they have their hands in to many cookie jars to represent the delta pilot group effectively. Prime example is that scope keeps getting sold down the river over and over again. Alpa evidently doesn't mind it because they will just get their dues via a trickle down as more jobs get outsourced to the regionals. Most regional pilots want scope protected just as much as we do because it protects their eventual long term goals as well.

A large pilot group of our size can make real changes if we have the right representation. Be it DPA or alpa I don't care but alpas track record over the past decade tells me they have lost focus. When alpa starts putting out the message that scope relief isn't an option any longer to mgmt and the pilots we will know they are serious about protecting our careers,upgrades,career earnings,schedules,and futures. I hope they can make that happen but so far this "taking it back" campaign has failed to produce results!

Our new pilot group is a strong group that deserves to be properly represented.

Discuss!! :beer:

 

[ACL65PILOT]

Fact is that DALPA is ALPA. I think that a change of focus here may achieve what you want.

 

[Superpilot92]

Fact is that DALPA is ALPA. I think that a change of focus here may achieve what you want.

It's not about what you or I want though, it's about what WE want. I don't think a single delta pilot, senior or junior wants to see their jobs or careers outsourced, especially without a knock down dragging fight!! I would love to see alpa do this but currently we haven't seen this from alpa or even seen them declare this. It gets rolled over on every time. For instance, we got a "no furlough" clause out of mgmt violating our contract. a real no furlough clause is to stop outsourcing jobs. Again it's not just junior guys effected either, it's the guys previously furloughed, down graded, or loss of pensions. After all the company had to pay for the rjs with all that money.

I truly hope the focus can be shifted and that is the point of my post. Email your reps!

 

[hockeypilot44]

If we de-certify ALPA, the whole organization will crumble. I'm fine with that. It has been a self-serving organization for profit for too long now.

 

[Redmeat]

Never happen

The problem with what you suggest is the shear number of pilots on the combined list with 10 years or more seniority.

Your problem is not theirs. To these guys scope is about number 10 on a list of 10... importance wise.

Quality of life issues are probably the top five, then pay and so on.

Junior guys get the shaft in this biz...always have always will.

Nature of the beast...

 

[Superpilot92]

The problem with what you suggest is the shear number of pilots on the combined list with 10 years or more seniority.

Your problem is not theirs. To these guys scope is about number 10 on a list of 10... importance wise.

Quality of life issues are probably the top five, then pay and so on.

Junior guys get the shaft in this biz...always have always will.

Nature of the beast...

Just wait until mgmt pulls what ual did and outsources widebody flying to air France! Then maybe they will care. The problem is, by that time it's to late to pull heads out of ass's. This isn't just a junior guy issue and anyone who can see past their own nose would see that.

 

[PuffDriver]

The problem with what you suggest is the shear number of pilots on the combined list with 10 years or more seniority.

Your problem is not theirs. To these guys scope is about number 10 on a list of 10... importance wise.

Quality of life issues are probably the top five, then pay and so on.

Junior guys get the shaft in this biz...always have always will.

Nature of the beast...

Count this 12 yr+ pilot as having scope #1 priority.
That being said, I think that the latest uproar is blown out of proportion. I certainly do not like it either, but feel that the fownside of a loss in arbitration was unacceptable as a risk.

Count me also in as one who does not want to bring Compass, Comair, Mesaba on the list. My hugely scientific poll, meaning asking my f/os from these places, indicates that there is still a large gap in wage, quality of life, and retirement that needs to be closed prior to hauling everyone on board and then closing the gap with my negotiating captial.

Thatbeing said, I am all in favor of bringing in 70 seat scope in C12K and striking over it.

Thoughts from a middle guy.

 

[Kroll]

Where do I sign up. ........Alpa blows period.

I'll pay double to get rid of these clowns.

Alpa should have united pilots across this country.........instead we all fight our own battles against each other.

 

[Fly4hire]

I don't think National is fixable. I also have no illusions about an in-house being a panacea for fixing all that ails ALPA. I do think, like APA, a large, strong in house union will better serve the interests of DAL pilots.

Would fixing National be easier than starting an in-house? Don't know - there is just too much inertia, intransigence, and career featherbedding there. We would have career union guys at an in-house in well, but at least they'd all be fN and fD.

Initially we might see a lot of familiar faces, but I like the idea of it all being focused on DAL. The one size fit's all approach is not working, and all the small fry joining ALPA are definitely diluting the careers of the mainline.

Right now ALPA is like NAFTA.....

 

[JumpersAway]

How about a nationwide standard for 70/76 and 50 seat pay. No contract signed without meeting that agreement.

Once ALL the regionals are one list, then address scope to staple the regionals to the bottom of mainline lists. Regionals are combined "Date of hire", then put on the bottom of mainline lists.

Being a "third generation airline pilot", I back my mainline partners 100 percent- I didn't want to, nor do I want, to stay at a regional as a career. However, to get everyone working together, there should be no double standard between mainline and regional- An airline pilot is an airline pilot. All jet's go mainline, all turboprops go regional. Truthfully, I'd like to see the turboprops go mainline as well.

 

[Redmeat]

Count this 12 yr+ pilot as having scope #1 priority.
That being said, I think that the latest uproar is blown out of proportion. I certainly do not like it either, but feel that the fownside of a loss in arbitration was unacceptable as a risk.

Count me also in as one who does not want to bring Compass, Comair, Mesaba on the list. My hugely scientific poll, meaning asking my f/os from these places, indicates that there is still a large gap in wage, quality of life, and retirement that needs to be closed prior to hauling everyone on board and then closing the gap with my negotiating captial.

Thatbeing said, I am all in favor of bringing in 70 seat scope in C12K and striking over it.

Thoughts from a middle guy.

Just the fact you're on here or any other airline forum says something about you. It says you are at least somewhat involved in your career.

I guesstimate for every 1 pilot that reads forums, tries to get at current info about the company, etc. there are 5 that don't have a clue (nor care). I talk to senior guys all the time that have NEVER been on an aviation related forum on the computer. Master Craft ski boat forums?...hell yes, airline forums?, no.

I remember flying with a senior captain in early 2003 as a senior FO and asked him how long he thought it would take to get everyone back on the property. He looked at me with a straight face and said, "we have guys on furlough?"

 

[Superpilot92]

Since we are talking about the junior/senior debate, here is a question for the senior guys. What has alpa done in the past decade to protect the "senior" pilots?

Also the argument that senior guys don't care about scope relief because they aren't effected doesn't work because not all senior guys are on the widebody aircraft. Every pilot is effected negatively in one way or another when scope is relaxed and flying is outsourced.

Also this discussion isn't just about scope either. It's about alpa and the cookie jars. They can't represent dal or any pilot group for that matter, as long as we are pinned against one another. Delta pilots need representation that works for us and the issues that effect us as a group.

As long as alpa represents the regionals and the mainline groups, there will always be a conflict of interest and we will never get the most out of our union. I truly hope that alpa can refocus but until they combine the cookies or reduce the choices their will always be a conflict of interests.

 

[FDJ2]

Count me also in as one who does not want to bring Compass, Comair, Mesaba on the list. My hugely scientific poll, meaning asking my f/os from these places, indicates that there is still a large gap in wage, quality of life, and retirement that needs to be closed prior to hauling everyone on board and then closing the gap with my negotiating captial.

I would put Compass in a different category. They are represnted in the Delta MEC with a non-voting member. An analogy, although imperfect, is that they are a DALPA protectorate, much like Guam is and Alaska was a U.S. protectorate. We have a unique relationship with Compass that we do not share with other DCI carriers.

 

[profit]

The fact that DAL is now so large also give the group more total pull in the national structure.

Super, if you feel passionately about scope, maybe you need to get involved a little bit. Maybe an idea for a resolution at a council meeting?

You had formerly claimed to be a student of Occam's Razor, but this current thread doesn't sound much like that..

 

[Fly4hire]

I would put Compass in a different category. They are represnted in the Delta MEC with a non-voting member. An analogy, although imperfect, is that they are a DALPA protectorate, much like Guam is and Alaska was a U.S. protectorate. We have a unique relationship with Compass that we do not share with other DCI carriers.

Not too much of a protectorate. More like what did the cat drag in - and I hear the sentiment is to cut them loose to form their own MEC ASAP. How long after that do you think they will attempt to rewrite the flow portion of their contract and thereby weaken furlough protection at DAL?

 

[Redmeat]

Since we are talking about the junior/senior debate, here is a question for the senior guys. What has alpa done in the past decade to protect the "senior" pilots?

Also the argument that senior guys don't care about scope relief because they aren't effected doesn't work because not all senior guys are on the widebody aircraft. Every pilot is effected negatively in one way or another when scope is relaxed and flying is outsourced.

Also this discussion isn't just about scope either. It's about alpa and the cookie jars. They can't represent dal or any pilot group for that matter, as long as we are pinned against one another. Delta pilots need representation that works for us and the issues that effect us as a group.

As long as alpa represents the regionals and the mainline groups, there will always be a conflict of interest and we will never get the most out of our union. I truly hope that alpa can refocus but until they combine the cookies or reduce the choices their will always be a conflict of interests.

I'm no ALPA National cheerleader believe me. My big contention was getting force fed age 65. I have absolutely no intention of flying professionally into my 60's.

My point was that given the numbers, there are enough guys senior enough that know (no matter how they feel about particular issues) that the doors would have to close at the airline before they ever see the street again.

That is a huge influence on decision making.

Besides that there ARE a lot of ALPA cheerleaders at the combined company (from both sides).

As for your direct question, ALPA is a good union for the screw ups...the guys who have there own chair with their name embroidered on it in the CP's office they're there so much.

Virtually impossible to successfully vote ALPA out of the new Delta.

 

[NuGuy]

Heyas,

Throwing ALPA out at DAL would make no difference. You'd have the same people running for office at whatever union took it's place.

At NWA, we took a lot of heat for our internal conflicts, but it served as an important check and balance to the kind of crap that just happened.

Maybe now the MEM/SEA/ANC reps will get onboard with the DTW reps.

For the fDAL guys...go to LEC meetings, and vote for the people who represent your interests. If there aren't any, then YOU run and lot's of people like what you have to say, then you will get elected.

Nu

 

[PCL_128]

What is the true problem here? ALPA National didn't agree to the grievance settlement that you're pissed off about, Captain Moak did. ALPA National didn't let it happen, your status reps did. Talk to your status reps and see why they allowed this to happen. If they don't give you a good answer, then recall them.

 

[Rez O. Lewshun]

Why does EVERYONE want to do nothing until a crises occurs?

Proactivity and being involved in your career is not an old concept. The problem isn't National or DALPA....

Look in the mirror....

If you get a new brand of union, and continue with apathy, it is not going to solve your problems.

Question: has USAPA proved to be a better deal for USAIR pilots?

Pilots constantly expect to NOT vote and participate and complain that their needs are not met.

First off... representation erodes rights. If you actually did vote for a representative, you diminish your OWN representation and rights. Simply because you are not at every meeting to speak up for yourself.

But you want the convenience of representation so you don't HAVE to attend every meeting.


The problem with our democracy system in our unions (and Country) is not the Brand Name of the Democracy...

It is the lack of involvement of the very people that democracy is supposed to represent....

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Heyas,

Throwing ALPA out at DAL would make no difference. You'd have the same people running for office at whatever union took it's place.

EXACTLY!