Delta Shuttle to be flown by Republic/Chautauqua/Shuttle America with "RJ's"

[~~~^~~~]

Delta Shuttle to be flown by Republic/Chautauqua/Shuttle America with "RJ's"

MD88's getting pulled out of LGA-DCA, being replaced with new (76 seat) E175's.

Mainline to be completely phased out from January 5th to March 28th.

 

[Plug]

MD88's getting pulled out of LGA-DCA, being replaced with new (76 seat) E175's.

Mainline to be completely phased out from January 5th to March 28th.

Gee fins, after being an RJDC supporter when we were at ASA I thought that you would approve of something like this. Right size aircraft and all.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just reporting the news... but, I'm against outsourcing.

 

[ugasucks]

Sad day for the Shuttle. I wish all the shuttle die hards( those who switched planes to fly it) the best! As they say now up there "All we are trying to do is stay ahead of the USair shuttle, and that is not hard." I guess we will see now if that is true.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Gee fins, after being an RJDC supporter when we were at ASA I thought that you would approve of something like this. Right size aircraft and all.

Gee Plug....after all this time you still don't understand what the RJDC issue was about...

Scope should never be about the "size" of an aircraft....It should include all members of the bargaining group to fly said flying in whatever size aircraft is appropriate...

Had the PID succeeded in 2000....this flying would still change guages...but not outsourced.....

Fins is now a Delta pilot....so his perspective has changed...but RJDC was never about MORE outsourcing....it was about NO MORE OUTSOURCING......

 

[~~~^~~~]

Wow - Joe and I agree about very little these days, but he's right.

At its core, the issue was whether or not the ASA Reps could represent their pilots to the entity that owned and had operational control of their airline. It was not fair to stop ASA from bargaining. One effect was bad scope, just as we see, with mainline pilots being replaced by non-ALPA pilots getting paid sub standard wages.

Now that ASA's Reps can represent their pilots what they do is up to them.

In the mean time the Delta and Northwest pilots have voted six times (or is it seven) to reduce their job protection provisions and scope. No one else ratified those contracts and the regional guys not even allowed in the room. No sense taking shots at them, or even the RJDC.

Who was responsible?

 

[ASA_DFW]

Just look at the loads on TravelNet. The Shuttle was losing money every day. It sucks, but at least they are doing something about it. Take the planes and relocate them on routes built for the MD-88.

The Boston portion will be the next to go. I wonder if they will keep the NYC 88 crew base open? Who knows. I am sorry for the people who commute out of DCA. No more overnights at home.

 

[michael707767]

Wow - Joe and I agree about very little these days, but he's right.

know what, I don't think anyone wants more outsourcing. But smart people realize that once you give away an airplane, it is never coming back. No mainline pilot group will ever have the negotiating leverage to take back aircraft that have already been outsourced. If you think you can, you are foolish at best.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Wow - Joe and I agree about very little these days, but he's right.

We don't agree these days because we are on opposite sides of a union created and managment leveraged fence......

You have to do what is best for you....and likewise I have to what is best for me....Neither of us wish ill on the other...but all "growth" at this point results in taking away from someone else....someone else who may belong to the same union....

We're in the same game....but it is "tug-of-war" and we are on opposite ends of the rope.....

We agree on how we got to this point...and what went wrong....However I doubt we can agree on a "fair" method to resolve it this late in the game....

 

[Plug]

Gee Plug....after all this time you still don't understand what the RJDC issue was about...

Scope should never be about the "size" of an aircraft....It should include all members of the bargaining group to fly said flying in whatever size aircraft is appropriate...

Had the PID succeeded in 2000....this flying would still change guages...but not outsourced.....

Fins is now a Delta pilot....so his perspective has changed...but RJDC was never about MORE outsourcing....it was about NO MORE OUTSOURCING......

Oh boy, how I miss these debates.

So force the DAL pilots in to negotiating a merger with ASA/CMR would've solved everything? I say force because that is exactly what would have had to have happened.

I know RJDC wasn't about more outsourcing but at the same time had the RJDC gotten what it wanted then there would have been no scope and all size aircraft would go to the likes of Mesa, you can't have it both ways.

I know fins is a Delta pilot and that is why I was busting his balls. I guess I just find it ironic is all.

Cheers

 

[JoeMerchant]

know what, I don't think anyone wants more outsourcing. But smart people realize that once you give away an airplane, it is never coming back. No mainline pilot group will ever have the negotiating leverage to take back aircraft that have already been outsourced. If you think you can, you are foolish at best.

At this point you are probably right...However when things were going good in 2000 and both DAL and CMR were in the "end game".....something could have been done....

Too late now....

 

[Plug]

Wow - Joe and I agree about very little these days, but he's right.

At its core, the issue was whether or not the ASA Reps could represent their pilots to the entity that owned and had operational control of their airline. It was not fair to stop ASA from bargaining. One effect was bad scope, just as we see, with mainline pilots being replaced by non-ALPA pilots getting paid sub standard wages.

Now that ASA's Reps can represent their pilots what they do is up to them.

In the mean time the Delta and Northwest pilots have voted six times (or is it seven) to reduce their job protection provisions and scope. No one else ratified those contracts and the regional guys not even allowed in the room. No sense taking shots at them, or even the RJDC.

Who was responsible?

Unfortunately unions have no say in how businesses structure themselves and thus we were under the employ of ASA just as you are under the employ of DAL now and I CAL.

 

[~~~^~~~]

I know RJDC wasn't about more outsourcing but at the same time had the RJDC gotten what it wanted then there would have been no scope and all size aircraft would go to the likes of Mesa, you can't have it both ways.

Plug, Sir, you still don't get it. The RJDC was never about "no scope." If anything the RJDC would have made scope tighter by restricting these airplanes that Delta negotiated to outsource.

First, a staple job would have kept the flying on the Delta list. That push failed BEFORE the formation of the RJDC.

The RJDC was a response to ALPA telling the ASA pilots that they could not negotiate a contract with the principle of their business who had operational control of the airline. ASA was not allowed to contract with Delta.

The RJDC won that point. ALPA changed it's policy and today ASA has a contract with it's owners and Comair has a contract with Delta.

Sure the RJDC would have liked to see these airplanes restricted to ASA and Comair, but, to make it sound like they wanted unlimited outsourcing is completely wrong. They wanted to stop outsourcing. Almost everything Bob Arnold predicted came true.

 

[ACL65PILOT]

I guess those 30 DC-9's will not be needed now.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Exactly - and that sucks.

 

[PuffDriver]

At this point you are probably right...However when things were going good in 2000 and both DAL and CMR were in the "end game".....something could have been done....

Too late now....

Sure, there could have been an industry leading flow through. Unfortunately, the RJDC along with both MECs had NO leadership. Their greed and feigned leverage led to the downfall of any kind of workable, realistic solution. Now, the junior Comair pilots are paying a heavy price, and it looks as if the junior ASA pilots will follow suit.

Too bad that the senior RJDC pilots controlling the agenda didn't REALLY practice what they preached. Abysmal failure.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Gee Plug....after all this time you still don't understand what the RJDC issue was about...

Yeah, we know what it was all about. Luckily for us if failed miserably, like your career!

Scope should never be about the "size" of an aircraft....It should include all members of the bargaining group to fly said flying in whatever size aircraft is appropriate...

And yet you filed a $$multi million lawsuit to fly those "larger size airplanes." Go figure?

Had the PID succeeded in 2000....this flying would still change guages...but not outsourced.....

What's past is past, get over it!

Fins is now a Delta pilot....so his perspective has changed...but RJDC was never about MORE outsourcing....it was about NO MORE OUTSOURCING......

Wrong! (big surprise again) It was about you trying to defraud our union out of millions of dollars!
Luckily it was about as successful as your career!:laugh:

 

[T2Bus]

Hey Marty...get a life.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Just curious if Delta, Inc. would have gone along with a flow? My guess is no, but the union never proposed it, so who knows?

As Puffdriver writes, I think this looks ugly for Comair.

Delta can't get out of its other RJ contracts (and yet keeps signing more contracts for the big RJ's )

 

[JoeMerchant]

Sure, there could have been an industry leading flow through. Unfortunately, the RJDC along with both MECs had NO leadership. Their greed and feigned leverage led to the downfall of any kind of workable, realistic solution. Now, the junior Comair pilots are paying a heavy price, and it looks as if the junior ASA pilots will follow suit.

Too bad that the senior RJDC pilots controlling the agenda didn't REALLY practice what they preached. Abysmal failure.

Thank God we didn't get a flowthrough in 2000....Flowthroughs are mainly job protection for the mainline folks when the furloughs happen....

How many mainline pilots have been hired in the past 10 years? What is the DOH of the junior UAL,NWA,AMR pilot? You got your flowback now with Compass and Mesaba.....

 

[~~~^~~~]

My bet is that it will never actually happen.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just curious if Delta, Inc. would have gone along with a flow? My guess is no, but the union never proposed it, so who knows?

Another excellent point Fins...This is all academic at this point. DAL will never allow a pilot that they haven't screened...Even the NWA poolies will have to re-interview....DAL only takes the "best of the best"

It will be interesting to see how the flowup Mesaba and Compass people will be treated.....

 

[On Your Six]

Thank God we didn't get a flowthrough in 2000....Flowthroughs are mainly job protection for the mainline folks when the furloughs happen....

How many mainline pilots have been hired in the past 10 years? What is the DOH of the junior UAL,NWA,AMR pilot? You got your flowback now with Compass and Mesaba.....

I know that Compass had an arrangement but I was not aware of any flow-through arrangement with Mesaba. Do they really have one?

 

[PuffDriver]

Just curious if Delta, Inc. would have gone along with a flow? My guess is no, but the union never proposed it, so who knows?

As Puffdriver writes, I think this looks ugly for Comair.

Delta can't get out of its other RJ contracts (and yet keeps signing more contracts for the big RJ's )

Indeed flow was proposed by DALPA, and would have been part of the PWA in C2K.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know that Compass had an arrangement but I was not aware of any flow-through arrangement with Mesaba. Do they really have one?

They do, but I believe it was only about 8 pilots who flowed up and therefor only about 8 that can flowback....Someone from NWA can provide the exact numbers.....

 

[Plug]

Plug, Sir, you still don't get it. The RJDC was never about "no scope." If anything the RJDC would have made scope tighter by restricting these airplanes that Delta negotiated to outsource.

First, a staple job would have kept the flying on the Delta list. That push failed BEFORE the formation of the RJDC.

The RJDC was a response to ALPA telling the ASA pilots that they could not negotiate a contract with the principle of their business who had operational control of the airline. ASA was not allowed to contract with Delta.

The RJDC won that point. ALPA changed it's policy and today ASA has a contract with it's owners and Comair has a contract with Delta.

Sure the RJDC would have liked to see these airplanes restricted to ASA and Comair, but, to make it sound like they wanted unlimited outsourcing is completely wrong. They wanted to stop outsourcing.

Your right, RJDC was all about scope, so long as it included ASA and CMR. My point is, where does it stop? What about the Mesa pilots, CHQ pilots, etc.? Where is the line? Your attempt to include is great and ideal but the reality of it is that there is still exclusion. Just because Delta bought us didn't mean squat.

In 2002 some of us at ASA still thought we had a play and we went around with information on that. Furloughed Delta pilots come down and fly our equipment, if they so desire, at their Delta DOH and in turn all ASA pilots be stapled to the bottom of the Delta list when vacancies there occur if the they so desire. Therefore those who wanna go can go and those who don't simply don't and the slot goes on to the next pilot. If this had occured the Delta pilots may have been willing to include ASA in their scope, not merge but include, therefore making sure that their own would have something to fly. It's a glorified flow-through, yes, but it was something. Instead some hard core RJDC folks didn't like this because scope was predatory and needed to be abolished all together and they should have a number at Delta.

Fins, you are a smart guy, I know, but the core of the followers of the RJDC that sent money loyally every month were in it for one reason, a number at Delta.

Cheers

 

[~~~^~~~]

It will be interesting to see how the flowup Mesaba and Compass people will be treated.....

There are some Mesaba pilots on the NWA list proposal. I have not heard they will be treated any differently.

There were some NWA mainline poolies that concerns were expressed about. I think the "flow up" pilots are probably in a better position than those hired by NWA and awaiting a class date.

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

 

[Plug]

Sure, there could have been an industry leading flow through. Unfortunately, the RJDC along with both MECs had NO leadership. Their greed and feigned leverage led to the downfall of any kind of workable, realistic solution. Now, the junior Comair pilots are paying a heavy price, and it looks as if the junior ASA pilots will follow suit.

Too bad that the senior RJDC pilots controlling the agenda didn't REALLY practice what they preached. Abysmal failure.

I agree and disagree. The CMR MEC had no leadership as JC was a flop. It was the line pilots at CMR that fought the good fight in 2000 and it was JC that stepped on their collective wankers. ASA had a hard-core unionist as it's MEC chair.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There are some Mesaba pilots on the NWA list proposal. I have not heard they will be treated any differently.

There were some NWA mainline poolies that concerns were expressed about. I think the "flow up" pilots are probably in a better position than those hired by NWA and awaiting a class date.

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

The one's who flowed already...but I bet DAL won't want to continue the flows after the current agreements expire...At least not without the ability to re-interview them....

 

[Plug]

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

Man, how times have changed for the Mesaba pilots. Two years ago they were about to go the way of the do-do bird and now it is considered one of the top regionals.