Delta Shuttle to be flown by Republic/Chautauqua/Shuttle America with "RJ's"

[~~~^~~~]

My bet is that it will never actually happen.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Just curious if Delta, Inc. would have gone along with a flow? My guess is no, but the union never proposed it, so who knows?

Another excellent point Fins...This is all academic at this point. DAL will never allow a pilot that they haven't screened...Even the NWA poolies will have to re-interview....DAL only takes the "best of the best"

It will be interesting to see how the flowup Mesaba and Compass people will be treated.....

 

[On Your Six]

Thank God we didn't get a flowthrough in 2000....Flowthroughs are mainly job protection for the mainline folks when the furloughs happen....

How many mainline pilots have been hired in the past 10 years? What is the DOH of the junior UAL,NWA,AMR pilot? You got your flowback now with Compass and Mesaba.....

I know that Compass had an arrangement but I was not aware of any flow-through arrangement with Mesaba. Do they really have one?

 

[PuffDriver]

Just curious if Delta, Inc. would have gone along with a flow? My guess is no, but the union never proposed it, so who knows?

As Puffdriver writes, I think this looks ugly for Comair.

Delta can't get out of its other RJ contracts (and yet keeps signing more contracts for the big RJ's )

Indeed flow was proposed by DALPA, and would have been part of the PWA in C2K.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I know that Compass had an arrangement but I was not aware of any flow-through arrangement with Mesaba. Do they really have one?

They do, but I believe it was only about 8 pilots who flowed up and therefor only about 8 that can flowback....Someone from NWA can provide the exact numbers.....

 

[Plug]

Plug, Sir, you still don't get it. The RJDC was never about "no scope." If anything the RJDC would have made scope tighter by restricting these airplanes that Delta negotiated to outsource.

First, a staple job would have kept the flying on the Delta list. That push failed BEFORE the formation of the RJDC.

The RJDC was a response to ALPA telling the ASA pilots that they could not negotiate a contract with the principle of their business who had operational control of the airline. ASA was not allowed to contract with Delta.

The RJDC won that point. ALPA changed it's policy and today ASA has a contract with it's owners and Comair has a contract with Delta.

Sure the RJDC would have liked to see these airplanes restricted to ASA and Comair, but, to make it sound like they wanted unlimited outsourcing is completely wrong. They wanted to stop outsourcing.

Your right, RJDC was all about scope, so long as it included ASA and CMR. My point is, where does it stop? What about the Mesa pilots, CHQ pilots, etc.? Where is the line? Your attempt to include is great and ideal but the reality of it is that there is still exclusion. Just because Delta bought us didn't mean squat.

In 2002 some of us at ASA still thought we had a play and we went around with information on that. Furloughed Delta pilots come down and fly our equipment, if they so desire, at their Delta DOH and in turn all ASA pilots be stapled to the bottom of the Delta list when vacancies there occur if the they so desire. Therefore those who wanna go can go and those who don't simply don't and the slot goes on to the next pilot. If this had occured the Delta pilots may have been willing to include ASA in their scope, not merge but include, therefore making sure that their own would have something to fly. It's a glorified flow-through, yes, but it was something. Instead some hard core RJDC folks didn't like this because scope was predatory and needed to be abolished all together and they should have a number at Delta.

Fins, you are a smart guy, I know, but the core of the followers of the RJDC that sent money loyally every month were in it for one reason, a number at Delta.

Cheers

 

[~~~^~~~]

It will be interesting to see how the flowup Mesaba and Compass people will be treated.....

There are some Mesaba pilots on the NWA list proposal. I have not heard they will be treated any differently.

There were some NWA mainline poolies that concerns were expressed about. I think the "flow up" pilots are probably in a better position than those hired by NWA and awaiting a class date.

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

 

[Plug]

Sure, there could have been an industry leading flow through. Unfortunately, the RJDC along with both MECs had NO leadership. Their greed and feigned leverage led to the downfall of any kind of workable, realistic solution. Now, the junior Comair pilots are paying a heavy price, and it looks as if the junior ASA pilots will follow suit.

Too bad that the senior RJDC pilots controlling the agenda didn't REALLY practice what they preached. Abysmal failure.

I agree and disagree. The CMR MEC had no leadership as JC was a flop. It was the line pilots at CMR that fought the good fight in 2000 and it was JC that stepped on their collective wankers. ASA had a hard-core unionist as it's MEC chair.

 

[JoeMerchant]

There are some Mesaba pilots on the NWA list proposal. I have not heard they will be treated any differently.

There were some NWA mainline poolies that concerns were expressed about. I think the "flow up" pilots are probably in a better position than those hired by NWA and awaiting a class date.

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

The one's who flowed already...but I bet DAL won't want to continue the flows after the current agreements expire...At least not without the ability to re-interview them....

 

[Plug]

Eventually there will be upwards movement - demographics tells you that. Mesaba and Compass are the two best entry jobs in the business. Mesaba, Compass and SkyWest have two year pilots holding lines in 90 (76) seaters.

Man, how times have changed for the Mesaba pilots. Two years ago they were about to go the way of the do-do bird and now it is considered one of the top regionals.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Your right, RJDC was all about scope, so long as it included ASA and CMR. My point is, where does it stop? What about the Mesa pilots, CHQ pilots, etc.? Where is the line?

In 2002 some of us at ASA still thought we had a play and we went around with information on that. Furloughed Delta pilots come down and fly our equipment, if they so desire, at their Delta DOH and in turn all ASA pilots be stapled to the bottom of the Delta list when vacancies there occur if the they so desire. Therefore those who wanna go can go and those who don't simply don't and the slot goes on to the next pilot. If this had occured the Delta pilots may have been willing to include ASA in their scope, not merge but include, therefore making sure that their own would have something to fly. It's a glorified flow-through, yes, but it was something. Instead some hard core RJDC folks didn't like this because scope was predatory and needed to be abolished all together and they should have a number at Delta.

Fins, you are a smart guy, I know, but the core of the followers of the RJDC that sent money loyally every month were in it for one reason, a number at Delta.

Cheers

Hmmm, I had not ever heard a flow through concept made it that far. I thought it got killed by some rather insensitive remarks by ASA's then MEC Chair in a meeting with C. Giambusso.

I like your idea and in fact, the Delta guys who came over where some really excellent pilots with great attitudes.

Ultimately, it was up to ALPA and Representatives of the respective airlines. I'd have drawn the line at wholly owned carriers represented by ALPA.

While I don't like flow through agreements in principle, I like forming bridges. IMHO we made a mistake by not trying to staple the wholly owned ALPA carriers in the DAL/NWA merger. If the Compass deal works out as a way to get them on the list, I'll be happy.

Instead we've really opened a pandora's box with the NWA scope. I'm concerned about the codeshare with MidWest being used, as well as Alaska, to virtually outsource DC9's, MD88's and 737 sized jets.

This same operator, Republic, will be flying Delta passengers with non-permitted aircraft.

 

[FDJ2]

Scope should never be about the "size" of an aircraft....It should include all members of the bargaining group to fly said flying in whatever size aircraft is appropriate.........

Since when has ASA ALPA ever been a member of the DAL ALPA bargaining group.

The RJDC was all about gutting the contractual protections which prevent unlimited outsourcing. It was all in the relief section of the frivolous lawsuit filed by Ford and his cronies.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Since when has ASA ALPA ever been a member of the DAL ALPA bargaining group.

The RJDC was all about gutting the contractual protections which prevent unlimited outsourcing. It was all in the relief section of the frivolous lawsuit filed by Ford and his cronies.

You won FDJ2....The DAL shuttle flying isn't going to those evil ASA and CMR pilots...It's going to the Republic folks....

You're right....we aren't one group....we are separate groups doing what is best for each of us.....A strange way to run a union...but you got what you wanted....

 

[~~~^~~~]

Man, how times have changed for the Mesaba pilots. Two years ago they were about to go the way of the do-do bird and now it is considered one of the top regionals.

Plug, that's the plan. To quote Bryan LaBreque "longevity is killing this airline." Without scope, these guys will go through cycles where they die as their costs get high. Once everyone turns over they will be the new low cost competitor with new pilots.

For "regional" pilots, their longevity will get killed in every cycle. For "mainline" pilots they will not be able to negotiate to get this flying back, because their longevity will make it prohibitively expensive even if the rates are rock bottom.

I've been saying all along this alter ego flying is a career killer from top to bottom.

 

[Plug]

Hmmm, I had not ever heard a flow through concept made it that far. I thought it got killed by some rather insensitive remarks by ASA's then MEC Chair in a meeting with C. Giambusso.

I like your idea and in fact, the Delta guys who came over where some really excellent pilots with great attitudes.

Ultimately, it was up to ALPA and Representatives of the respective airlines. I'd have drawn the line at wholly owned carriers represented by ALPA.

While I don't like flow through agreements in principle, I like forming bridges. IMHO we made a mistake by not trying to staple the wholly owned ALPA carriers in the DAL/NWA merger. If the Compass deal works out as a way to get them on the list, I'll be happy.

Instead we've really opened a pandora's box with the NWA scope. I'm concerned about the codeshare with MidWest being used, as well as Alaska, to virtually outsource DC9's, MD88's and 737 sized jets.

This same operator, Republic, will be flying Delta passengers with non-permitted aircraft.

Back in 2002 myself and some other pilots put together a petition in that we put in folks v-files stating what we thought would be a good system for securing DCI flying ASA. It involved what I wrote before and some vocal senior pilots pooh-poohed it during an LEC 112 meeting. It may not have been perfect but it would have been something.

You would have drawn the line at the wholly-owned airlines? Wouldn't that exclude and fly in the face of the lawsuit?

 

[~~~^~~~]

I agree and disagree. The CMR MEC had no leadership as JC was a flop. It was the line pilots at CMR that fought the good fight in 2000 and it was JC that stepped on their collective wankers. ASA had a hard-core unionist as it's MEC chair.

Worse, he threw a grenade at the Delta furloughed guys and that will not be forgotten.... Saw it again just last week.

He tried to play the brotherhood card, then stabbed people in the back.

I still have my "we support you sticker" the CMR MEC sent the same weekend they entered bargaining to try to undercut ASA.

 

[hockeypilot44]

Delta can't get out of its other RJ contracts (and yet keeps signing more contracts for the big RJ's )

That is because Delta does not want out of the regional jet market. Delta just wants to get rid of the 50 seaters. If Delta had its way, everything would be outsourced due to cheaper labor. Now it's the 76 seater. Next in line is Embraer 190's flown by the regionals that are only configured for 80 seats. Once they are on the property, Delta will give something to the union to let the company put 100 seats in the 190. This game has been played before. Our union is ALWAYS a step behind the company.

 

[JoeMerchant]

Back in 2002 myself and some other pilots put together a petition in that we put in folks v-files stating what we thought would be a good system for securing DCI flying ASA. It involved what I wrote before and some vocal senior pilots pooh-poohed it during an LEC 112 meeting. It may not have been perfect but it would have been something.

Setting the "integration method" aside for a moment....which I disagree with.....The main problem with yours and others is that the timing is wrong...

The window of opportunity was in 2000 when ALPA had leverage....By 2002, it was too late.....

Pilots only worry about job security when times are bad....which corresponds to the least amount of leverage to solve the problem...

When times are good....pilots don't care and just want more money and more time off......

 

[Plug]

Worse, he threw a grenade at the Delta furloughed guys and that will not be forgotten.... Saw it again just last week.

He tried to play the brotherhood card, then stabbed people in the back.

I still have my "we support you sticker" the CMR MEC sent the same weekend they entered bargaining to try to undercut ASA.

I still have the sticker and the letter it came in. Interestingly enough, JC sat next to John Malone at Bob's funeral, I sat behind them.

 

[~~~^~~~]

You would have drawn the line at the wholly-owned airlines? Wouldn't that exclude and fly in the face of the lawsuit?

As I recall the lawsuit asked for a renegotiation of CY2000 scope with Delta, ASA and Comair's Reps at the table. I'm pretty sure of that.

I'm not an expert once suit was filed. The RJDC had to kick me out because I refused to join the litigation and was outside the attorney - client ring of trust. Funny, but I've never even seen all the stuff sent out to ASA & Comair pilots as members of the class, or those who supported the RJDC.