NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[Gunfighter]

This is nonsense.

Facts:

MYTH: NWA Pilots just got a large pay raise/ Delta pilots got nothing

Fact: Nwa pilots received a wage increase but that goes away in a few months. Health care, and monthly guarantee decrease.

Yes, health care may cost a little more, but you are complaining about working less for the same or more money? Come on. Do you actually want to work significantly more hours at a lower hourly rate. Under that logic, you would be willing to work overtime for less than regular pay.

The new contract provides for 2x pay on greenslips over ALV or 75 hours, whichever is lower. That's better than 1.5 for over 80. It's a huge improvement, accept it for what it's worth.

Is it in the NWA culture to complain about everything? It's ok to smile and enjoy things some times. It's alright to be happy when something good happens. If I buy a round on a layover can I expect the former NWA guys to complain because the beer is too free, too cold and served by a waitress that is too pretty, whose waist is too skinny and whose b... are too large.

Ok, done venting. Now lets drink that free, cold beer that the captain is buying.

 

[NEWSOUTH]

I think we all need to step away from this thread for a day. Watch some football, drink some beer, whatever you do to find your happy place.

My colleague Peanuckel was just trying to be sarcastic (like he usually is, and I don't see why treat his comments so seriously?

Yea, your right. Your colleague is the cool, sarcastic guy. I'm just the uptight serious guy with violations and family issues flying the kid's jet. I will go back to my board, where I belong. So sorry for trying to sit in the front with you. My bad.

 

[recallsomeday]

Ask the USAir East guys if they feel "equal"? The arbitrator didn't care in that case. He did what was right--except for the top 500, he kept everyone in the same percentage as before the merger. He looked at what each airline brought to the table, and then decided. IF we had the same number of planes and pilots, it would be easier to figure out. We don't.

Bye Bye--General Lee

Ask how many Easters/Westers think that what the arbitrator did was "right" ?

Purely a matter of (your) opinion, or anyones opinion of "right" or "wrong".

How about "time of service" figured in? with or without credit for furlough time?

 

[Superpilot92]

Yea, your right. Your colleague is the cool, sarcastic guy. I'm just the uptight serious guy with violations and family issues flying the kid's jet. I will go back to my board, where I belong. So sorry for trying to sit in the front with you. My bad.

That's probably a GREAT idea! CYA :beer:

 

[NEWSOUTH]

:beer:

That's probably a GREAT idea! CYA :beer:

And would'nt won't to BYA:beer:

 

[Deadalus]

Re: Seniority List Integrations, currently NW & DL:
I can't see how they could justify anything OTHER than DOH in a merger of equals, (especially so for the 2008 hires for whom merger talk was ongoing when they elected to take those jobs...why on earth would any from one side be above those on the other side hired before them?). They are now one company of pilots on the same path now.
The ratio lists are all ridiculous too... So right now DL side believes they are what UNITED believed themselves to be several years back (look at THEM now)...
In another venue in the same industry, look what a JOKE NetJets was just a few years ago...now look at them...and they could just as easily go right back where they were. We at FlightOtps used to be the highest paid and fastest growing...now the opposite...It happens over and over again throughout the entire industry.
There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry!
THAT said.... I understand (from those posting here anyway) that NW and DL have differences regarding probation and longevity. There is much talk explaining that former NW furloughs get their longevity back (which is good and equal to the DL furloughs)
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued.
Also....are both sides using the MOST recent seniority lists with most recent positions held by pilots (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" (though I don't see how they could when so many people choose lower equip than they can hold due to QOL issues.
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those.
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all!

You need to change your name dude. You are hardly the voice of reason and Delta and NW are hardly equals. DOH is great within an airline, but is worthless and unjust in a merger.

 

[Scope out RJ's]

Tried to come back.... Tried to post... Tried to take a shot at the General's wife...

Realized I have more important things to do with my life....

Have fun, children.

Then you realized trolling the playgrounds was more fun, and productive! :laugh:
AMF!

 

[PeanuckleCRJ]

....lots of pent up anger typed here

Therapy is good. The nice man next to the couch welcomes you.

 

[MJ42]

Therapy is good. The nice man next to the couch welcomes you.

Didn't you actually mean to quote Scope? If not, you should have!

 

[Monster Buck]

OK... I'm gone. Just trying to show what I have learned about aviation. Over the top? Yes. I do feel bad about the industry. Maybe, I was offering a solution. Maybe, I've seen some stuff that makes me sick to my stomach and I was willing to throw myself to the wolves. Continue on.

Obviously very little. Please leave as you have promised; with your failure, someone who likes to fly can take your place. Yes, you have failed. You spent years to get where you are only to stop because of falling short of your early expectations. You must not have done your homework about the airlines before you tried to work for one.
Next in line please step forword.

 

[RedRum]

Yes, health care may cost a little more, but you are complaining about working less for the same or more money? Come on. Do you actually want to work significantly more hours at a lower hourly rate. Under that logic, you would be willing to work overtime for less than regular pay.

The new contract provides for 2x pay on greenslips over ALV or 75 hours, whichever is lower. That's better than 1.5 for over 80. It's a huge improvement, accept it for what it's worth.

Is it in the NWA culture to complain about everything? It's ok to smile and enjoy things some times. It's alright to be happy when something good happens. If I buy a round on a layover can I expect the former NWA guys to complain because the beer is too free, too cold and served by a waitress that is too pretty, whose waist is too skinny and whose b... are too large.

Ok, done venting. Now lets drink that free, cold beer that the captain is buying.

From a NWA guy. The pay raise is a big QOL improvement, and YES I would definitely work less for the same pay. Although I don't think it is a myth that we didn't get a pay raise.

Times are good right now, but knowing what I know, and experiencing what I have experienced, trouble is always looming around the corner.

Look forward to getting the SLI behind us. Happy days are here...for now.

 

[licorice]

From a NWA guy. The pay raise is a big QOL improvement, and YES I would definitely work less for the same pay. Although I don't think it is a myth that we didn't get a pay raise.

WTF? In the first sentence you imply a pay raise "exists", in the second sentence you imply a pay raise "does not exist". Unless your "pay raises" are quantum objects whose existence can only be described in terms of a probablistic superposition...then....:nuts: ....according to Aristotilian logic/metaphysics your implications are impossible. A classically or conventionally conceived "thing" cannot both "exist" and "not exist" at the same time and in the same place and in the same manner...etc.. Aristotilian logic has been around for 2300 years, I don't think you have refuted it. (nor will you ever be able to..)

Look forward to getting the SLI behind us. Happy days are here...for now.

--Now that is something that I will whole-heartedly agree with!!!:beer:

 

[licorice]

Had some beers with my new DAL brothers in ATL recently, and they actually agreed with most of what I said. A couple were even ashamed at their own proposal.

.

nwaredtail, I believe you need the services of a good gastroenterologist. It appears you have such a massive lower intestinal occlusion, that the ensuing unwieldy accumulation of "material" and pressure behind the occlusion is causing a gradual shift in tint of your irises toward a 'brownish' color, with the corresponding pressure 'squeezing' your lower brainstem, causing you to compose such fanciful posts.....seek medical attention immediately!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

So, NEWredtail, How many "officially" did you get to retire. Seems NWA is trying to keep that little bit of info hush hush.

 

[Fly4hire]

So, NEWredtail, How many "officially" did you get to retire. Seems NWA is trying to keep that little bit of info hush hush.

Due to the very short fuse DCC, which apparently caught both DAL an NWA MEC's to be caught off guard, ~40 pilots got in under the wire on basically six hours notice.

No hard evidence, but there is considerable anecdotal evidence that part of the short fuse on the DCC was to prevent a large exodus (like DAL experienced).

I suppose you will attempt to use this as yet another disingenuous attempt to prove we won't have as many retirements as we are projecting.

Even with the stock market hit, I'm flying with many Captains who plan on retiring as soon as they have 25 YOS who are younger than 60.

Too bad you guys didn't decide to keep your pension. Is suppose you'll try and spin that into some BS SLI argument as well...........

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No, not at all. He stated that it was more than 50. It went against the numbers that I was hearing. The number you posted is in line with that.

I will not argue that there were probably reasons that our management did what they did. Less than two hrs means that they probably sat on the info for six hrs or so. I assumed that when we started getting Pop Ups about name tags that the DOJ had informed them. The official news did not come out for six more hrs.

Our pensions are gone. We gave them away. End of story. There is nothing that we can do about that now. I think that you guys keeping yours is great. I guess it was a bet on what the future would bring. Now you have your pensions, partial pay restoration, and works rules. The way I see it, you played all of your cards very well. I also assume that you will come out very well in the SLI. Many people take the NWA folks for idiots. Fact is that you are far from that. You have played your hand very well. A straight ratio would be a win too.
I look forward to you guys being on property in 2012. Hopefully we will finally stop the slide.

 

[General Lee]

Due to the very short fuse DCC, which apparently caught both DAL an NWA MEC's to be caught off guard, ~40 pilots got in under the wire on basically six hours notice.

No hard evidence, but there is considerable anecdotal evidence that part of the short fuse on the DCC was to prevent a large exodus (like DAL experienced).

I suppose you will attempt to use this as yet another disingenuous attempt to prove we won't have as many retirements as we are projecting.

Even with the stock market hit, I'm flying with many Captains who plan on retiring as soon as they have 25 YOS who are younger than 60.

Too bad you guys didn't decide to keep your pension. Is suppose you'll try and spin that into some BS SLI argument as well...........

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. You can also create a story like your A320FO(the guy who admitted that attrition has never been used before in a SLI, ever) did about 2 Ex Western pilots, and how they each had seperate paths that they took after they were furloughed there......Did you hear there was a third pilot also in that group? He decided to be a Mr. Mom, and stayed away from flying for the last 20 years. Do you think he also should get DOH??? Crazy. Let's make up some more...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. ..... Let's make up some more...
Bye Bye---General Lee

Fact is I do hear this from Captains - now if I fly 2 or 3 trips a month and hear this from every 3rd Captain is it statistically significant? Probably not, but it is anecdotal over the fact that many of our guys can afford to retire based on before age 65 assumptions.

The pilots that are retiring at or prior to 60 far outweigh those who are remaining past 60. Fact. Not our problem that you guys decided to throw your retiring (and retired) pilots under the bus to save yourselves.

Keep convincing yourselves all the way until the arbitrators rule. I'm glad you know exactly what's in their minds and how they will rule. Keep not listening to what they are trying to tell you (here's another hint: they didn't ask for a 30 day extension so they had extra time to just use your "middle of the road" fair proposal).

Prepare yourself for disappointment.

 

[General Lee]

Fact is I do hear this from Captains - now if I fly 2 or 3 trips a month and hear this from every 3rd Captain is it statistically significant? Probably not, but it is anecdotal over the fact that many of our guys can afford to retire based on before age 65 assumptions.

The pilots that are retiring at or prior to 60 far outweigh those who are remaining past 60. Fact. Not our problem that you guys decided to throw your retiring (and retired) pilots under the bus to save yourselves.

Keep convincing yourselves all the way until the arbitrators rule. I'm glad you know exactly what's in their minds and how they will rule. Keep not listening to what they are trying to tell you (here's another hint: they didn't ask for a 30 day extension so they had extra time to just use your "middle of the road" fair proposal).

Prepare yourself for disappointment.

Maybe you do know that as ALPA members, we have to follow the ALPA merger policy, and that doesn't have DOH in it. The arbitrators know this too. Also, they will use Nicelau's decision as a precedent. If you REALLY think you will get middle of the road, when we started in the middle, and you started at a far end, then you will be disappointed. Also, any reason why your SEA and ANC LECs are infighting with the rest of your MEC? Could it be due to future business plans they are privy to now? Just wondering. Now that the DCC is done, RA is allowed to give more info on what WILL happen. Maybe that is why the arbitrators want to allow more time for us to negotiate it. A lot to digest I guess.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. You can also create a story like your A320FO(the guy who admitted that attrition has never been used before in a SLI, ever) did about 2 Ex Western pilots, and how they each had seperate paths that they took after they were furloughed there......Did you hear there was a third pilot also in that group? He decided to be a Mr. Mom, and stayed away from flying for the last 20 years. Do you think he also should get DOH??? Crazy. Let's make up some more...


Bye Bye---General Lee

Mr. Bi-Polar strikes again. What is your opinion, Mr. Genius, on why the arbitrators said they are treating this as a merger of equals? HMMMMMMMMM.

And how many times has "future aircraft parkings" been figured into an award. ANSWER=0. So, why would DALPA spend almost an entire day trying to convince 3 experienced arbitrators that they should take that into account?

Think "rookies"