NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[General Lee]

01! that is my point! Lets say they do decide to get rid of the 747-200's along with some DC-9's! The fences would protect the delta guys! Even though if they are treating this merger as equals that is complete Bull$hit!The new Delta's bussiness plan is totally different than NWA's stand alone! Look at the end of the day, I don't expext to be in the right seat or left seat of any of your aircraft ahead of my relative senority(If that only holds the DC9 than fine). Now, I do expect the opportunity to be the the right or left seat of an NWA heavy before any Delta pilot junior to me!

I think you have that right, you should be in any NWA heavy before any DL pilot junior to you. Any future newhires would all be below you, even if you were in the bottom 400. Someone has to be in the bottom 400, and if they all could have been furloughed, then they might fall into that category. Or, if they could not possibly hold any widebody, while the otherside could and also received the higher pay, then they may fall into that 400. I don't know if there will be that exact number, but they should figure out something that is fair, and not a windfall for some with respect to pay, while unfair towards others. The DC9s are currently the smallest plane we have, paying the least. No getting around that. You also have some 747-200 FEs that are not over age 60 pilots, that were hired in the bottom 176 at NWA. We don't have any FE positions left at Delta. That also has to be looked at.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[number11]

question for u 01! R u saying that it would be a fair handsake for the NWA guy that was hired in 2000 to watch a 2008 new hire bid that heavy slot before him? Fences will protect everyones interest's!

 

[General Lee]

question for u 01! R u saying that it would be a fair handsake for the NWA guy that was hired in 2000 to watch a 2008 new hire bid that heavy slot before him? Fences will protect everyones interest's!

What happened just recently at USAir and their arbitration? A 17 year FO at East was put next to a newhire at AWA. That is the way it goes. We were expanding in the last wave of hiring (17 new 757s from AA in a few months), and you were hiring for attrition. Putting DOH for those people effectively staples our bottom 600, and that is the same thing you guys are mad about, but we are still adding planes and you may lose some. Ask the USAir East 17 year FO at the bottom if he is happy. He probably isn't, but the arbitrator must have thought it was fair. He was in the bottom 1% of his company, so he was placed in the bottom 1% of the merged company. No windfall there. And that is just relative percentage. We aren't even talking about putting 400 of your guys on the bottom either in that case. But, you have planes leaving, and your MEC was told there could likely be some furloughs. We were told we need more pilots on our side. Big difference. And, on top of that, we still need fences, to protect ourselves from the massive injustice called the "Roberts Award." That award fenced off Republic pilots for 20 years on anything large at NWA. Now that that fence is over, there is nothing those guys can bid--since you had very few retirements, and no displacements from bases. So where are those super duper senior guys now? On narrowbodies, looking at our 777s. They could EASILY hold it now, and they want the chance. But, should we clean up your mess? Nope. Putting fences up on all large planes, and allowing the new manning formula to work (now 2 Captains and 2 FOs for flights over 12 hours), should allow those greenbooks the opportunity to bid up to the 744 and A330, and actually tell that redbook that was the only Captain before and the one taxiing it around to "MOVE OVER", essentially making everything "all better."


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[licorice]

There is NO logical way to predict "career expectations" in this industry! Dear Voice: This is about the only coherent thought you have been able to express on this thread.
...but how will these inequities be resolved for those NW guys now on probation? Will recent date of hire DL guys remain with longer longevity than say NW guys hired a couple of months BEFORE them, or will they be made equal citizens like everyone else? If so...will they be given equal citizenship BEFORE an SLI is issued soon (sooner if negotiated), since they seem to not be applying a lot of the integrational issues until "undetermined" dates.
It will make a big difference to those people on your SLI if EVERYONE isn't made "equal" longevity-wise BEFORE the SLI is negotiated or issued. WTF? Are you kidding? You, a "RIF" proponent, actually wrote this? YGTBSM!! I have watched you struggle throughout this entire thread trying to express yourself on some topic loosely associated with (as best as I can tell)--"longevity for probationary NW newhires". Most respondents have been extaordinarily kind and patient with you, trying to address your fervent concerns, but I suspect they were only guessing as to what they were. You continued to grow more irritated with each incoherent post, then you became rude, actually refering to someone's post as "monkey talk". You, sir, are priceless! (this is huge if they DO decide something crazy like "relative position?" .........followed by...........
This thread isn't for why one side thinks it is better than the other....BTW...enough of those...Wow...
Hope your reps are addressing these issues for you and not just the concerns of those not concerned about losing their jobs....
Good luck to all! ....hmmm....say what?

Voice: Please do not let me discourage you from further attempts to express yourself, I actually look forward to reading them!

 

[Donsa320]

What happened just recently at USAir and their arbitration? A 17 year FO at East was put next to a newhire at AWA. That is the way it goes. We were expanding in the last wave of hiring (17 new 757s from AA in a few months), and you were hiring for attrition. Putting DOH for those people effectively staples our bottom 600, and that is the same thing you guys are mad about, but we are still adding planes and you may lose some. Ask the USAir East 17 year FO at the bottom if he is happy. He probably isn't, but the arbitrator must have thought it was fair. He was in the bottom 1% of his company, so he was placed in the bottom 1% of the merged company. No windfall there. And that is just relative percentage. We aren't even talking about putting 400 of your guys on the bottom either in that case. But, you have planes leaving, and your MEC was told there could likely be some furloughs. We were told we need more pilots on our side. Big difference. And, on top of that, we still need fences, to protect ourselves from the massive injustice called the "Roberts Award." That award fenced off Republic pilots for 20 years on anything large at NWA. Now that that fence is over, there is nothing those guys can bid--since you had very few retirements, and no displacements from bases. So where are those super duper senior guys now? On narrowbodies, looking at our 777s. They could EASILY hold it now, and they want the chance. But, should we clean up your mess? Nope. Putting fences up on all large planes, and allowing the new manning formula to work (now 2 Captains and 2 FOs for flights over 12 hours), should allow those greenbooks the opportunity to bid up to the 744 and A330, and actually tell that redbook that was the only Captain before and the one taxiing it around to "MOVE OVER", essentially making everything "all better."


Bye Bye---General Lee

General, as I noted before, I see your point but when you try to support it with plain untruth you lose credibility. Green bookers were not locked out of widebody aircraft at the combined carrier. I got a 744 bid within a year of the award So did many of my fellow green bookers. The ratios in the award provided that. There were some arbitrations but they were technical, like; do you count the school house pilots in computing the ratio. Green said yes, Red said no. Arbitrator said yes. So it goes. Each side looked out for their own. It was cumberson at times but it worked. I'm betting you all will see something like it too.
And no, I did not fly the 744 since the company gave me the choice of taking the pay and staying on the 320. Fourteen hour non-stops are not my cup of tea. Not for a vanity type rating.

DC

 

[MCDU]

Quote
Ask the USAir East 17 year FO at the bottom if he is happy. He probably isn't, but the arbitrator must have thought it was fair. He was in the bottom 1% of his company, so he was placed in the bottom 1% of the merged company. No windfall there. And that is just relative percentage

That 17 year f/o. Like the one United had and now will have were not always at the bottom. Just in that tiny snap shot in 2005. AWA bottom pilot was always there and would be able to bid wide bodies with no restrictions before most East F/O's. The 17 year USAIR F/O is now long from the bottom and are all block holders and junior Capt. while the AWA pilot is still on the bottom. This in 2-3 years all the while USAIR east went down to min. fleet size. So that snap shot of rel. seniority is a total windfall for AWA. The most junior AWA pilot would have almost 600 pilots below him if the Nic award was implemented. The NWA pilots understand that taking a snap shot is not going to work and is totally unfair. Again, what do some pilots not understand that DOH with fences and protections is the only fair way to do it. The fences keeps everyone in place and does not effect your position. Its funny that the company will always respect you hire date.

M

 

[~~~^~~~]

Voice of Reason:

There is a difference between career expectations and status quo. The NWA pilots have argued career expectations to support their notion that the three year earlier surge in retirement numbers results in a disparate impact for future promotion.

The Delta pilots are arguing to preserve what they already have, the status quo.

There was a significant difference in new hire demographics. The average Delta 2007 hire was 37 with 5,500 hours and a Master's Degree or other form of post Bachelor's education. This reflected a difference in opportunities for new hires and new hire pay. Regardless of how you spin it, the Delta "new hires" were on average further down the road in their lives and careers.

I'm not claiming that age and experience should count for anything. The NWA new hires are equally qualified. But, the fact that the Delta new hires are holding schedules on the 767 and MD88 should count for something, because that is their STATUS QUO.

A different integration methodology for one part of the seniority list, especially if it is jerrymandering to line folks up for furlough, is a clear abrogation of ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation and opens the SLI up for the kind of litigation everyone wishes to avoid.

I can understand with the scope triggers why they might want to negotiate DOH for the bottom pilots to try to put as many as possible below the 76 seat jet cap. Isn't that the tail wagging the dog?

Thus far, this merger has gone very well for everyone forced to go along for the ride. Representatives for both sides have done a good job. I expect they will continue to work as they have and whatever is worked out will be fair.

 

[Voice Of Reason]

Voice of Reason:

There is a difference between career expectations and status quo. The NWA pilots have argued career expectations to support their notion that the three year earlier surge in retirement numbers results in a disparate impact for future promotion.

The Delta pilots are arguing to preserve what they already have, the status quo.

There was a huge difference in new hire demographics. The average Delta 2007 hire was 37 with 5,500 hours and a Master's Degree or other form of post Bachelor's education. This reflected a difference in opportunities for new hires and new hire pay. Regardless of how you spin it, the Delta "new hires" were on average further down the road in their lives and careers.

I'm not claiming that age and experience should count for anything. The NWA new hires are equally qualified. But, the fact that the Delta new hires are holding schedules on the 767 and MD88 should count for something, because that is their STATUS QUO.

A different integration methodology for one part of the seniority list, especially if it is jerrymandering to line folks up for furlough, is a clear abrogation of ALPA's Duty of Fair Representation and opens the SLI up for the kind of litigation everyone wishes to avoid.

I can understand with the scope triggers why they might want to negotiate DOH for the bottom pilots to try to put as many as possible below the 76 seat jet cap. Isn't that the tail wagging the dog?

Thus far, this merger has gone very well for everyone forced to go along for the ride. Representatives for both sides have done a good job. I expect they will continue to work as they have and whatever is worked out will be fair.

Status Quo????
Status quo would be operating as stand alone airlines without the benefits they acquire in this merger.
There is no more status quo, just as there are no career expectations. When you where hired (date) is when you were hired. If the company YOU CHOSE elected to merge and become one, those hire dates should be merged by hire date.

The company you naively THOUGHT would allow you to be a new hire in a widebody NO LONGER EXISTS.

The name is just a name...it could easily be called "New Global Arline" right now...it is a combination of two companies worth of assets, now ONE.

You CHOSE a company that MERGED with another...now one company with two sides that bring varying lengths of service to the table. You can CHOSE to play roulette AGAIN at another place, but that's how it goes.

If I were on either side I would watch very carefully the fences you decide to put up, considering to half of the pilots BASE and QOL mean eons more than equipment. What good is protecting your widebody if they send them to say JFK, SLC, LAX, or some similarly undesirable base to the majority? From the sound of it they plan a huge shuffle of NW equip to DL bases and vice versa.

There are a number of posts speculating what and where (all with "inside info,") but nothing in writing from the company.

I'll bet RA and his Ford & Harrison right hand man Mike Campbell have told their buddy Moak though!

(As for the illiterate poster who thought me "promoting" RIF was Reduction in Force even after I spelled out Reading Is Fundamental...thanks for illustrating exactly the type of incoherent post I was referring to)

 

[jetflier]

Oh come on now. We hired a bunch because we were expanding, and we had just gotten 17 757ERs from AA (ex TWA birds). That is why we had so many newhires on the 757/767ER---we just got a bunch of them at once, and expanded a lot at JFK. We also received a few 777s, and some 737-700s. This is why we restarted hiring. You guys had some attrition, but I don't remember any new chunks of airplanes you received. Do you? We had to have 600 or more pilots, quick. You also started returning more airplanes than we did (you gave back 10 757s--some to Fedex, and some A319s, along with some DC9s). We also gave back some planes (some MD88s, a few 757s, and a few 767ERs I believe), but not as many as you did.

The only new orders you have had for awhile now are the 787s, and they still may not come. We shall see I guess. And come on, you are now a Delta pilot---no more Holiday Inn Express nights. You should upgrade to the Red Roof Inn!

Bye Bye--General Lee

General,

I have to agree that we are all DAL now.

Justifiably so, IMO NWA has been pruned for the last few years for this merger, adversely affecting the NWA side of DAL. There were no airframes added, and some with non negot leases were returned to the lessors.

That pruning did have a positive affect on the bottom line of NWA, exactly what Wall Street wanted prior to merging the airlines.

For the sake of post merger efficencies, in the near term, new airframe aquistions, and leases would be held by DAL going forward from the inception of the merger during the pre CH11 time. It's no coincidence that both airlines entered CH11 simultaneously, in the same jurisdiction, in the same state, and the same court. All this in close proximity to the law firms representing both airlines.

This merger has been very carefully planned since 2000.

And I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night...

 

[Muskycat]

gENERAL, We slowed down hiring so that our "big thing" could fit into the little hole Delta made for us.

Delta kept expanding to keep the costs on the DAL side of the balance sheet, so that the NWA investors get a reasonable return on the twenty or so NWA subsidiaries. Of course this is just MHO, I satyed in a Holiday Inn last night.

You slowed down hiring because of Delta??? And then in early summer of 2008 at NWA you came up with the "Lay off Protection Plan."
You sure about your "big thing, little hole" theory?