NW/DL (and ultimately affecting ALL of us): The Flaw With "Career Expectations"

[RedRum]

Yes, health care may cost a little more, but you are complaining about working less for the same or more money? Come on. Do you actually want to work significantly more hours at a lower hourly rate. Under that logic, you would be willing to work overtime for less than regular pay.

The new contract provides for 2x pay on greenslips over ALV or 75 hours, whichever is lower. That's better than 1.5 for over 80. It's a huge improvement, accept it for what it's worth.

Is it in the NWA culture to complain about everything? It's ok to smile and enjoy things some times. It's alright to be happy when something good happens. If I buy a round on a layover can I expect the former NWA guys to complain because the beer is too free, too cold and served by a waitress that is too pretty, whose waist is too skinny and whose b... are too large.

Ok, done venting. Now lets drink that free, cold beer that the captain is buying.

From a NWA guy. The pay raise is a big QOL improvement, and YES I would definitely work less for the same pay. Although I don't think it is a myth that we didn't get a pay raise.

Times are good right now, but knowing what I know, and experiencing what I have experienced, trouble is always looming around the corner.

Look forward to getting the SLI behind us. Happy days are here...for now.

 

[licorice]

From a NWA guy. The pay raise is a big QOL improvement, and YES I would definitely work less for the same pay. Although I don't think it is a myth that we didn't get a pay raise.

WTF? In the first sentence you imply a pay raise "exists", in the second sentence you imply a pay raise "does not exist". Unless your "pay raises" are quantum objects whose existence can only be described in terms of a probablistic superposition...then....:nuts: ....according to Aristotilian logic/metaphysics your implications are impossible. A classically or conventionally conceived "thing" cannot both "exist" and "not exist" at the same time and in the same place and in the same manner...etc.. Aristotilian logic has been around for 2300 years, I don't think you have refuted it. (nor will you ever be able to..)

Look forward to getting the SLI behind us. Happy days are here...for now.

--Now that is something that I will whole-heartedly agree with!!!:beer:

 

[licorice]

Had some beers with my new DAL brothers in ATL recently, and they actually agreed with most of what I said. A couple were even ashamed at their own proposal.

.

nwaredtail, I believe you need the services of a good gastroenterologist. It appears you have such a massive lower intestinal occlusion, that the ensuing unwieldy accumulation of "material" and pressure behind the occlusion is causing a gradual shift in tint of your irises toward a 'brownish' color, with the corresponding pressure 'squeezing' your lower brainstem, causing you to compose such fanciful posts.....seek medical attention immediately!!!

 

[ACL65PILOT]

So, NEWredtail, How many "officially" did you get to retire. Seems NWA is trying to keep that little bit of info hush hush.

 

[Fly4hire]

So, NEWredtail, How many "officially" did you get to retire. Seems NWA is trying to keep that little bit of info hush hush.

Due to the very short fuse DCC, which apparently caught both DAL an NWA MEC's to be caught off guard, ~40 pilots got in under the wire on basically six hours notice.

No hard evidence, but there is considerable anecdotal evidence that part of the short fuse on the DCC was to prevent a large exodus (like DAL experienced).

I suppose you will attempt to use this as yet another disingenuous attempt to prove we won't have as many retirements as we are projecting.

Even with the stock market hit, I'm flying with many Captains who plan on retiring as soon as they have 25 YOS who are younger than 60.

Too bad you guys didn't decide to keep your pension. Is suppose you'll try and spin that into some BS SLI argument as well...........

 

[ACL65PILOT]

No, not at all. He stated that it was more than 50. It went against the numbers that I was hearing. The number you posted is in line with that.

I will not argue that there were probably reasons that our management did what they did. Less than two hrs means that they probably sat on the info for six hrs or so. I assumed that when we started getting Pop Ups about name tags that the DOJ had informed them. The official news did not come out for six more hrs.

Our pensions are gone. We gave them away. End of story. There is nothing that we can do about that now. I think that you guys keeping yours is great. I guess it was a bet on what the future would bring. Now you have your pensions, partial pay restoration, and works rules. The way I see it, you played all of your cards very well. I also assume that you will come out very well in the SLI. Many people take the NWA folks for idiots. Fact is that you are far from that. You have played your hand very well. A straight ratio would be a win too.
I look forward to you guys being on property in 2012. Hopefully we will finally stop the slide.

 

[General Lee]

Due to the very short fuse DCC, which apparently caught both DAL an NWA MEC's to be caught off guard, ~40 pilots got in under the wire on basically six hours notice.

No hard evidence, but there is considerable anecdotal evidence that part of the short fuse on the DCC was to prevent a large exodus (like DAL experienced).

I suppose you will attempt to use this as yet another disingenuous attempt to prove we won't have as many retirements as we are projecting.

Even with the stock market hit, I'm flying with many Captains who plan on retiring as soon as they have 25 YOS who are younger than 60.

Too bad you guys didn't decide to keep your pension. Is suppose you'll try and spin that into some BS SLI argument as well...........

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. You can also create a story like your A320FO(the guy who admitted that attrition has never been used before in a SLI, ever) did about 2 Ex Western pilots, and how they each had seperate paths that they took after they were furloughed there......Did you hear there was a third pilot also in that group? He decided to be a Mr. Mom, and stayed away from flying for the last 20 years. Do you think he also should get DOH??? Crazy. Let's make up some more...


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Fly4hire]

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. ..... Let's make up some more...
Bye Bye---General Lee

Fact is I do hear this from Captains - now if I fly 2 or 3 trips a month and hear this from every 3rd Captain is it statistically significant? Probably not, but it is anecdotal over the fact that many of our guys can afford to retire based on before age 65 assumptions.

The pilots that are retiring at or prior to 60 far outweigh those who are remaining past 60. Fact. Not our problem that you guys decided to throw your retiring (and retired) pilots under the bus to save yourselves.

Keep convincing yourselves all the way until the arbitrators rule. I'm glad you know exactly what's in their minds and how they will rule. Keep not listening to what they are trying to tell you (here's another hint: they didn't ask for a 30 day extension so they had extra time to just use your "middle of the road" fair proposal).

Prepare yourself for disappointment.

 

[General Lee]

Fact is I do hear this from Captains - now if I fly 2 or 3 trips a month and hear this from every 3rd Captain is it statistically significant? Probably not, but it is anecdotal over the fact that many of our guys can afford to retire based on before age 65 assumptions.

The pilots that are retiring at or prior to 60 far outweigh those who are remaining past 60. Fact. Not our problem that you guys decided to throw your retiring (and retired) pilots under the bus to save yourselves.

Keep convincing yourselves all the way until the arbitrators rule. I'm glad you know exactly what's in their minds and how they will rule. Keep not listening to what they are trying to tell you (here's another hint: they didn't ask for a 30 day extension so they had extra time to just use your "middle of the road" fair proposal).

Prepare yourself for disappointment.

Maybe you do know that as ALPA members, we have to follow the ALPA merger policy, and that doesn't have DOH in it. The arbitrators know this too. Also, they will use Nicelau's decision as a precedent. If you REALLY think you will get middle of the road, when we started in the middle, and you started at a far end, then you will be disappointed. Also, any reason why your SEA and ANC LECs are infighting with the rest of your MEC? Could it be due to future business plans they are privy to now? Just wondering. Now that the DCC is done, RA is allowed to give more info on what WILL happen. Maybe that is why the arbitrators want to allow more time for us to negotiate it. A lot to digest I guess.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

I suggest you use the above on the stand during our next hearing coming up here. You can also create a story like your A320FO(the guy who admitted that attrition has never been used before in a SLI, ever) did about 2 Ex Western pilots, and how they each had seperate paths that they took after they were furloughed there......Did you hear there was a third pilot also in that group? He decided to be a Mr. Mom, and stayed away from flying for the last 20 years. Do you think he also should get DOH??? Crazy. Let's make up some more...


Bye Bye---General Lee

Mr. Bi-Polar strikes again. What is your opinion, Mr. Genius, on why the arbitrators said they are treating this as a merger of equals? HMMMMMMMMM.

And how many times has "future aircraft parkings" been figured into an award. ANSWER=0. So, why would DALPA spend almost an entire day trying to convince 3 experienced arbitrators that they should take that into account?

Think "rookies"

 

[General Lee]

Mr. Bi-Polar strikes again. What is your opinion, Mr. Genius, on why the arbitrators said they are treating this as a merger of equals? HMMMMMMMMM.

And how many times has "future aircraft parkings" been figured into an award. ANSWER=0. So, why would DALPA spend almost an entire day trying to convince 3 experienced arbitrators that they should take that into account?

Think "rookies"

You guys are really hung up on this "equals" thing. Guess what? Bloch was saying neither of us was failing, while the other one was rescuing the other. (that goes against your "we are bringing in so much money while you are in debt" argument). Also, that equal thing blows away your "super duper premium flying" idea.

And does future parkings influence arbitrators? You say it does not. What about faulty computer models? Your SLI computer model had 94 DC9s in the mix, along with all of your 787s flying by July 1st of 2009. Do you really think that will happen? Your computer model said so----since it took a "snapshot" at Jan 1st of 2008. Our guy slammed your guy on the stand. How many DC9 captains did it figure in again? Ummmmm, 415. Riiight. And, your MEC chair was asked if he had heard about any future furloughs from your CEO, and he stated interestingly enough "I don't recall....." Wouldn't the FIRST thing as an MEC chair ask to the CEO if he heard about any possible furloughs be "How many are we talking about?" He said he didn't recall, and our lawyer reminded him it was 200-350. Could that be used in the SLI? It was about the FUTURE.......Oh yeah, and your computer model also left out the 8 extra 777s we WILL be getting by July 1st of next year (Boeing just agreed to it, and they are working again). Darn computers! And is there any reason why part of the transcripts are "confidential"? Could that include our future business plans? (like the possibilities of losing certain flying?) Would that be important? I would think so.


Bye Bye--General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

You guys are really hung up on this "equals" thing. Guess what? Bloch was saying neither of us was failing, while the other one was rescuing the other. (that goes against your "we are bringing in so much money while you are in debt" argument). Also, that equal thing blows away your "super duper premium flying" idea.

And does future parkings influence arbitrators? You say it does not. What about faulty computer models? Your SLI computer model had 94 DC9s in the mix, along with all of your 787s flying by July 1st of 2009. Do you really think that will happen? Your computer model said so----since it took a "snapshot" at Jan 1st of 2008. Our guy slammed your guy on the stand. How many DC9 captains did it figure in again? Ummmmm, 415. Riiight. And, your MEC chair was asked if he had heard about any future furloughs from your CEO, and he stated interestingly enough "I don't recall....." Wouldn't the FIRST thing as an MEC chair ask to the CEO if he heard about any possible furloughs be "How many are we talking about?" He said he didn't recall, and our lawyer reminded him it was 200-350. Could that be used in the SLI? It was about the FUTURE.......


Bye Bye--General Lee

Pretty sure that if you think attrition will not be considered, nothing happening past Dec 20th will be considered.(parking planes, furloughs)

Can't have it both ways Einstein. Take your meds and stop typing.

 

[jetflier]

No, not at all. He stated that it was more than 50. It went against the numbers that I was hearing. The number you posted is in line with that.

I will not argue that there were probably reasons that our management did what they did. Less than two hrs means that they probably sat on the info for six hrs or so. I assumed that when we started getting Pop Ups about name tags that the DOJ had informed them. The official news did not come out for six more hrs.

Our pensions are gone. We gave them away. End of story. There is nothing that we can do about that now. I think that you guys keeping yours is great. I guess it was a bet on what the future would bring. Now you have your pensions, partial pay restoration, and works rules. The way I see it, you played all of your cards very well. I also assume that you will come out very well in the SLI. Many people take the NWA folks for idiots. Fact is that you are far from that. You have played your hand very well. A straight ratio would be a win too.
I look forward to you guys being on property in 2012. Hopefully we will finally stop the slide.

ACL,

Yep we have heard the Delta cry about our pensions. I was hired in Mar of 1995 and will get a whopping $3400/month in the year 2022, that might just make my double wide house payment by then.

Our guys that are junior to me collect sums all the way down to $70.00/month, (junior DC9 F/O).
Some pilots can chime in with less than that.

All the NWA pilots have been raked over the coals and have tried to hold the line. We've lost some battles and won others.

We hope to bring to Delta the true resolve of our pilot group, where collectively we can begin to work towards a profitable and successful future as Delta Pilots.

 

[General Lee]

Pretty sure that if you think attrition will not be considered, nothing happening past Dec 20th will be considered.(parking planes, furloughs)

Can't have it both ways Einstein. Take your meds and stop typing.

Retirements, or actual parking of planes? Big difference. There is NO way to be SURE that retirements will happen. Age 60 is GONE. If we still had it, it would be easy to tell if people were going to leave--they would have to. Now age 65 has screwed up your numbers, because there is no certainty that those senior guys will go next month, or 4 years from now. Now, if we have "confidential" portions of the transcripts, I would BET that there is some info there that pertains to what WILL happen with the ANC cargo base, and maybe how many DC9s they are planning to park for good. If not, why would it be "confidential?" They could put RA on the stand and ask him. Would that be admissable? If Steenland told your MEC chair that NWA would have furloughed 200-350 pilots, could that be used? It is all about career expectations, and what will happen with those planes. Why do you still have 94 DC9s in your computer model, anyway? Do you still have 94 DC9s? Did Steenland say some were to be parked? See, you can have it both ways.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[nwaredtail]

Retirements, or actual parking of planes? Big difference. There is NO way to be SURE that retirements will happen. Age 60 is GONE. If we still had it, it would be easy to tell if people were going to leave--they would have to. Now age 65 has screwed up your numbers, because there is no certainty that those senior guys will go next month, or 4 years from now. Now, if we have "confidential" portions of the transcripts, I would BET that there is some info there that pertains to what WILL happen with the ANC cargo base, and maybe how many DC9s they are planning to park for good. If not, why would it be "confidential?" They could put RA on the stand and ask him. Would that be admissable? If Steenland told your MEC chair that NWA would have furloughed 200-350 pilots, could that be used? It is all about career expectations, and what will happen with those planes. Why do you still have 94 DC9s in your computer model, anyway? Do you still have 94 DC9s? Did Steenland say some were to be parked? See, you can have it both ways.


Bye Bye---General Lee

Why, because some mid to low seniority Delta pilot says so. laughable. Keep grabbing at straws...... Looks to me like you are getting nervous.....