Rah To Fly For Midwest Express

[PCL_128]

OK. Now you're getting emotional, not rational. Basic morality and ethics in light of a legal decision?
NMB rules it a separate carrier. OK, now what?

Again, your talking legality, I'm talking ethics. SCABbing isn't illegal, but it is unethical and immoral. By the same token, the NMB may claim that TSA and GoJet are separate companies, but we all know the truth. Ethics must still be adhered to.

 

[PCL_128]

what???? again, you have no idea of what you are talking about.

This is the first I'm hearing of ALPA claiming that scope has actually been violated in the MEH/RAH case. What language is being violated?

 

[Freight Dog]

Again, your talking legality, I'm talking ethics. SCABbing isn't illegal, but it is unethical and immoral. By the same token, the NMB may claim that TSA and GoJet are separate companies, but we all know the truth. Ethics must still be adhered to.

Which recognized and defined picket line did GoJet pilots cross? Whose strike did they break?

Were TSA pilots striking or were they filing grievance over something and they lost?

Dude, they filed a grievance and the arbitrator disagreed. Sucks for TSA, yes, absolutely, but that doesn't make GoJet pilots scabs.

So now what about RAH? Are they scabs now too? Suppose MEH pilots lose their grievance... are RAH pilots also gonna be referred to as pseudo-scabs?

 

[PCL_128]

Which recognized and defined picket line did GoJet pilots cross? Whose strike did they break?

Why do you seem to believe that crossing a picket line is the only unethical act that a pilot can commit? They are not SCABs, but they aren't blameless, either.

So now what about RAH? Are they scabs now too? Suppose MEH pilots lose their grievance... are RAH pilots also gonna be referred to as pseudo-scabs?

My understanding is that Captain Schnedorf and the rest of the MEC are working closely with the RAH IBT unit. This is obviously a much different situation, even if ALPA Legal has determined that there is a scope violation.

 

[Freight Dog]

Why do you seem to believe that crossing a picket line is the only unethical act that a pilot can commit? They are not SCABs, but they aren't blameless, either.[/qupte]

OK, so which is it? Are they scabs or are they not? In previous posts, you were referring to GoJet pilots as scabs. Now you're saying they're not, but just "unethical."

Also, following the conclusion of the grievance through NMB decision ruling against ALPA, how is it unethical to work there?

My understanding is that Captain Schnedorf and the rest of the MEC are working closely with the RAH IBT unit. This is obviously a much different situation, even if ALPA Legal has determined that there is a scope violation.

How? From what I read around here, looks like GoJet pilot union is working closely with TSA ALPA on a number of issues including hiring furloughees. The only difference I see here between RAH/MEH case and TSA/GoJet case is that the TSA/GoJet case was decided 3 years ago.

 

[PCL_128]

OK, so which is it? Are they scabs or are they not? In previous posts, you were referring to GoJet pilots as scabs. Now you're saying they're not, but just "unethical."

I've always referred to them as "pseudo-scabs." They aren't true SCABs, but they're almost as bad.

Also, following the conclusion of the grievance through NMB decision ruling against ALPA, how is it unethical to work there?

I thought we already covered this? They're willfully assisting management in the destruction of ALPA jobs at TSA.

How? From what I read around here, looks like GoJet pilot union is working closely with TSA ALPA on a number of issues including hiring furloughees.

Got a reference? I haven't heard about this. In any case, the situation is completely different. GoJet's entire purpose in being created was to destroy TSA ALPA. RAH is being used as a pawn of Timmaaaay and MEH to harm the MEH pilots, but RAH is a completely separate company and the pilots there did not take jobs that were specifically created to destroy MEA ALPA. You're trying to compare two situations that couldn't possibly be more different.

 

[Propsync]

what???? again, you have no idea of what you are talking about.

Hey Wolf, could you post the section? I don't know if you can or you can't here on the mighty FI.

I call BS and agree with PCL. I really doubt there's anything in there that says Midwest CAN'T do it. I find it strange not much was said on the 80's getting parked, but now all of a sudden there's a problem, the same time the entire MEC will be gone. Guess it didn't hit home until now.

On the other side, what real good is gained by grieving it? ALPA did something? Say it goes all the way. Nine 717's and a dozen 170's on the certificate. If TH and klan says it will position Midwest for future growth, what aircraft will they use? How many? Again, this is all moot as Midwest will be done after Delta and NW merge. I don't understand why everyone is up in arms about this.

 

[Freight Dog]

I've always referred to them as "pseudo-scabs." They aren't true SCABs, but they're almost as bad.

I don't buy it, and here's why... by using your definition, it would make every express pilot a pseudo-scab. Watch below...

I thought we already covered this? They're willfully assisting management in the destruction of ALPA jobs at TSA.

'They (express pilots) are willfully assisting management in the destruction of (high-paying) ALPA jobs at (insert a mainline carrier here).'

That's why it's a 'slippery slope' to loosely apply any reference to scabs to this situation. The application of any reference to scabbing by GoJet pilots was squashed by NMB in their ruling. Simple... it's time to let it go and concentrate on future fights, not re-living and fighting a fight that was lost 3 years ago.

Got a reference? I haven't heard about this. In any case, the situation is completely different. GoJet's entire purpose in being created was to destroy TSA ALPA. RAH is being used as a pawn of Timmaaaay and MEH to harm the MEH pilots, but RAH is a completely separate company and the pilots there did not take jobs that were specifically created to destroy MEA ALPA. You're trying to compare two situations that couldn't possibly be more different.

The bulk of the newhires at GoJet now are TSA furloughees with the bulk of the street captain/CQFO's are furloughed ATA/Champion (not familiar of any former Aloha there). I believe I read about TSA/GoJet pilot union cooperation on this board, or it might have been on APC. Might want to do some checking...

I really don't see much difference between the old TSA/GoJet argument, Eagle/TSA argument and MEH/RAH argument. It's a cutthroat industry. The CEO's and the management are laughing their asses off all the way to the bank while we are getting even more and more divided as a group.

 

[GOULET!]

PCL needs to first take care of his own SCAB (or psuedo-scab)filled airline first (AirTran).

 

[PCL_128]

I don't buy it, and here's why... by using your definition, it would make every express pilot a pseudo-scab. Watch below...

'They (express pilots) are willfully assisting management in the destruction of (high-paying) ALPA jobs at (insert a mainline carrier here).'

That's why it's a 'slippery slope' to loosely apply any reference to scabs to this situation.

Again, completely different situation. The mainline pilots all voted to allow that outsourcing to the "express" carriers. Stupid decision? Yep, but it was theirs to make. No flying was stolen from them, and no letter or intent of the scope language was violated. It was a willful agreement to outsource the flying. That is not what happened at TSA/GoJet.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL needs to first take care of his own SCAB (or psuedo-scab)filled airline first (AirTran).

You mean all 20 of them? Yeah, we're really "filled" with them.

 

[Freight Dog]

Again, completely different situation. The mainline pilots all voted to allow that outsourcing to the "express" carriers. Stupid decision? Yep, but it was theirs to make. No flying was stolen from them, and no letter or intent of the scope language was violated. It was a willful agreement to outsource the flying. That is not what happened at TSA/GoJet.

No, it's not. It's the same end product.

Mainline pilot had a proverbial gun to their head in bankruptcy when they allowed such explosive growth of express carriers in relaxing scope. Either they "allow it" or the judge makes them do it. Some choice...

Let's hope Airtran never goes through bankruptcy, it's not a fun process. But it'd be a huge eye opener for you.

TSA/GoJet case was decided 3 years ago. How is it a willful disregard for TSA scope when the case has been decided against ALPA and there's no legal appeal??? Makes absolutely ZERO sense. If it was still an ongoing legal process, you might have a point. But with the case decided, with ALPA not appealing the decision and literally forgetting about the case, I gotta ask.... how is it a willful disregard of TSA contract?

 

[PCL_128]

Mainline pilot had a proverbial gun to their head in bankruptcy when they allowed such explosive growth of express carriers in relaxing scope. Either they "allow it" or the judge makes them do it. Some choice...

Mainline pilots gave up 70-seat scope long before bankruptcy ever entered the equation. If I remember right, DCI was already doing over 35% of DAL's block hours even when DAL scope only allowed for 57 70-seat replacement jets. In any case, it doesn't matter, because no one had a contract rammed down their throat in the end. Every concessionary contract was approved by the membership, and most of them by very large margins. You can try to blame bankruptcy courts, but a vote is a vote.

But it'd be a huge eye opener for you.

Not really.

TSA/GoJet case was decided 3 years ago. How is it a willful disregard for TSA scope when the case has been decided against ALPA and there's no legal appeal??? Makes absolutely ZERO sense. If it was still an ongoing legal process, you might have a point. But with the case decided, with ALPA not appealing the decision and literally forgetting about the case, I gotta ask.... how is it a willful disregard of TSA contract?

You keep talking about legality, and I'm talking ethics and common sense. Until we break that barrier, this conversation is going nowhere. I don't care about the legality. I care about right and wrong. It's legal to cross a picket line. Doesn't make it right.

 

[Freight Dog]

Mainline pilots gave up 70-seat scope long before bankruptcy ever entered the equation. If I remember right, DCI was already doing over 35% of DAL's block hours even when DAL scope only allowed for 57 70-seat replacement jets. In any case, it doesn't matter, because no one had a contract rammed down their throat in the end. Every concessionary contract was approved by the membership, and most of them by very large margins. You can try to blame bankruptcy courts, but a vote is a vote.

Check bankruptcy contracts and report back on freq. Check UAL also while you're at it. See what happened with them, and how much of their flying went to express carriers while they were in BK and how much they suffered in bankruptcy. Would it surprise you that many United Express carriers have better work rules than mainline UAL pilots flying Airbuses? Thank you bankruptcy court.

Not really.

Dude, it's a whole different animal to read about bankruptcy. It's yet another thing to live through it and watch your contract get gutted either "voluntarily" by management, or by judge thru 1113c process.

You keep talking about legality, and I'm talking ethics and common sense. Until we break that barrier, this conversation is going nowhere. I don't care about the legality. I care about right and wrong. It's legal to cross a picket line. Doesn't make it right.

OK, do you agree with me that the case has been decided against ALPA?

Do you agree that ALPA did not file any appeals to overturn the ruling?

Do you agree that the legal process has run its due course and it's OVER?

So in light of all that... how can you possibly compare scabbing to GoJet TODAY?

I'm dying to know...

 

[PCL_128]

Check bankruptcy contracts and report back on freq. Check UAL also while you're at it. See what happened with them, and how much of their flying went to express carriers while they were in BK and how much they suffered in bankruptcy.

I don't need to "check" anything. I'm already well aware of what happened in bankruptcy. Doesn't change anything.

OK, do you agree with me that the case has been decided against ALPA?

Yes.

Do you agree that ALPA did not file any appeals to overturn the ruling?

Yes.

Do you agree that the legal process has run its due course and it's OVER?

Yes, the legal process is over. The overall situation is not, however.

So in light of all that... how can you possibly compare scabbing to GoJet TODAY?

I'm dying to know...

I've already answered that question numerous times in this thread and others. You just don't seem to like the answer.

 

[Freight Dog]

Yes, the legal process is over. The overall situation is not, however.

I've already answered that question numerous times in this thread and others. You just don't seem to like the answer.

It's not that I like or dislike the answer, it's calling spade a spade. People will go to GoJet regardless of what you or I or anyone else may think.

How is the overall situation not over? What else is left to do? What can we do? What is the reality of the situation? You and I both know the answer... it's just not popular on FI.

 

[nerjdriver]

The point I was trying to make was simply this: Isnt there more to life than arguing with a computer screen all day?

200 Posts in 3 years? I hardly think he is doing that. Try again.

 

[Moustache]

200 Posts in 3 years? I hardly think he is doing that. Try again.

8 posts ------ call the FBO to see if the C150 is open this weekend---D0UCHE!!!!

 

[MarineGrunt]

So are the Republic guys actually going to do this flying even though it's a violation of their contract? Can't they refuse to do it? And what was the outcome of that Sept 16th meeting? It's beginning to look like BOTH unions are about to roll over and take it in the can on this one...

 

[Popeye0537]

So are the Republic guys actually going to do this flying even though it's a violation of their contract? Can't they refuse to do it? And what was the outcome of that Sept 16th meeting? It's beginning to look like BOTH unions are about to roll over and take it in the can on this one...

It's not a violation of our contract until the first midwest pilot sits in the seat of one of the 170's