Reionals fate? Delta/NWA Merger?

[DoinTime]

NO, You Don't get it! I'm surprised, especially from another C-130 guy.

I'll take a Military Aviator any day over those guys who bought their job by paying for training in the mid to late 1990's.

If you want a merit based system then how about go by the date each pilot received their Comm, Inst, ME rating or if military the date they got their wings.

This way those PFTers that bypassed seniority (and still attempt to gain even more by their one list methodology) won't screw those of us who didn't buy a job. Also, this would be fair to those who chose to severe in the military. Furthermore, corporate guys who had the desire to fly at a major but decided to go another career route than a regional would not be penalized by my suggestion.

We are not talking about a national general pilot seniority list here. We are talking about a national ALPA seniority list. If someone wants to screw off and do something else for awhile thats their prerogative but they don't get a place holder on the ALPA seniority list. The ALPA list is for ALPA pilots.

Any way you look at it, it's not going to happen. If it does it will be well after most of us retire. Just because you fly a few years at a 121 regional shouldn't mean you get to leapfrog corporate guys that maybe didn't have the same opportunities(because of lack of jobs in the 1990's) as you, or military pilots who chose to serve our country.

Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yep, and that right there is how this whole mess got started.......the sense of entitlement by some that they deserved only to fly the big iron, and the props and barbie's should be flown only by those less deserving.

BINGO!! DING DING DING!!

 

[CFI2766]

Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

We don't have a merit system. It really is based off of when you 'got in line.' If you don't like it, well, frankly, don't play.

The seniority system is unjust to everyone in the 121 world at some point in their careers. However, in the end, it results in the most overall equality and quality of life for those involved.

The assertion that 'fighter' time makes one a better airline pilot than one who has slogged through the regional path is inaccurate. Need bombs on target, on time? Fly with the fighter guy. Need to get passengers to their destination, with customer service, on day 5 of a scheduled 4 day trip? Fly with the airline guy.

Sure, military time makes good military pilots. I'm not going to be convinced that the military pilot is by definition a better pilot than the airline pilot who went the civilian route.

 

[MJ42]

We are not talking about a national general pilot seniority list here. We are talking about a national ALPA seniority list. If someone wants to screw off and do something else for awhile thats their prerogative but they don't get a place holder on the ALPA seniority list. The ALPA list is for ALPA pilots.




Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.

Ok, fair enough. So, it's more of an ALPA thing you suggest. Still have a problem with those PFTers that paid for their job(seniority) and still will benefit at others expense.

What about those not in ALPA like American and Southwest?

Like FMS said it's all about timing, I fully agree. But, the airline industry is so cyclical, therefore, it seems if a guy was unlucky by starting aviation during a down cycle then he would be penalized by your "one list".

Example: Early 90's...no jobs. A pilot wants to fly for a major someday but takes 1st job he can get since no one is hiring. Gets on with an ok corporate gig and is unable to leave(start at 1st year pay) to go to a regional for that APLA seniority #. Fast forward...Young guy gets hired early at an ALPA carrier during a regional hiring boom. Upgrades fast, already has that ALPA # you talk about. Both were working for the same goal(major airline). Both get hired by a major at same time. Yet young guy is years senior to corporate guy who has tons more experience as well as blood and sweat invested in his career. I just don't think that is fair.

Believe me, there are a ton of pilots(including me) who fall into a similar career path.

There would be just too much heartburn with an ALPA "one list" as you suggest.

Disclaimer: above example is not my career path.

Also, what if a pilot leaves an ALPA regional to go to American then gets furloughed? Do they lose their ALPA seniority once they went to American? What if they get hire by another ALPA carrier while on furlough, do they get ALPA seniority back and then leapfrog up the seniority list to their ALPA seniority?

I know, so many what if's...but this is why one list will not work. In theory it seems great, in reality it's not practical.

 

[rickair7777]

No....not unacceptable at all. To think it is is pure elitism.

Not elitism, just facts of life. That's the way the people who are in a position to make those decisions think.

Just pointing out the reality for those who may not understand that perspective.

And the majority of those military guys are better than the majority of civilian guys. They were more heavily screened at the entry-level, and were pushed FAR harder during their military stint...that does make a difference.

 

[rickair7777]

You just don't get it do you?
This is not a merit based system, it is a first come first serve, right place right time, seniority based system.
Your LCDR should have remained in the NAVY and
recieved a well deserved promotion. But then again is the Military a true merit based sytem itself, or just another clique of savy political officers greasing their skids (so to speak) at the expense of others?
I digress and will save that argument for a later day.

I was actually being sarcastic.

But I do get it, more clearly than 95% of the pilots out there...I did civilian flight training and commercial flying AND served as a military officer for years, I know both sides of that fence.

What's the right answer? It depends on where you come from....

Civilians would prefer one list, DOH. This would solve a lot of problems.

The senior guys at all the unions are largely ex-military, as is the culture at the top of all major airline pilot groups. They see a brother, a ten-year veteran who busted his ass for years, has a BS and a masters, has thrived in an environment where competition and high standards weeds out many. It's hard for those folks to stomach the idea that their guy should be junior to a 22 y/o "riddle-diddle", or an ATP 90-day wonder with a online-GED.

In this case there is no right answer, only the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

 

[MJ42]

I was actually being sarcastic.

But I do get it, more clearly than 95% of the pilots out there...I did civilian flight training and commercial flying AND served as a military officer for years, I know both sides of that fence.

What's the right answer? It depends on where you come from....

Civilians would prefer one list, DOH. This would solve a lot of problems.

The senior guys at all the unions are largely ex-military, as is the culture at the top of all major airline pilot groups. They see a brother, a ten-year veteran who busted his ass for years, has a BS and a masters, has thrived in an environment where competition and high standards weeds out many. It's hard for those folks to stomach the idea that their guy should be junior to a 22 y/o "riddle-diddle", or an ATP 90-day wonder with a online-GED.

In this case there is no right answer, only the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

Very well said!

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Folks, rule number one in the airlines is that seniority rules. If these former military or corporate guys came to my airline, they'd be junior to me serving as my FO. They should be junior to me on a national seniority list also, period.

Having said that, a national seniority list is probably just a theoretical pipedream anyway.

 

[MJ42]

Folks, rule number one in the airlines is that seniority rules. If these former military or corporate guys came to my airline, they'd be junior to me serving as my FO. If they came to your airline then it would be their choice, but most will be competitive without the need to go to a regional. Why penalize seniority of someone with major airline aspirations just because they choose a different career path They should be junior to me on a national seniority list also, period.

Having said that, a national seniority list is probably just a theoretical pipedream anyway.

Agree that a national list will not happen for many reasons. Mainly would be a US Airways type blood bath x1000.

But, (if you're a Comair FO as your profile states)you obviously feel this way because you would lose a lot of seniority. Anyone hired into a regional the last few years would be against it. Most pilots hired in the 2000's have no idea how historically difficult it has been to get an airline job and have never experienced it! Walking out of flight school and into a regional jet has NEVER happened except for the past few years. It's understandable you'd want to preserve your seniority.

On the other hand, what about the thousands of us who started flying in the early 1990's. Don't tell me it's all timing, I started flying in college at 19 and never had the same opportunities like pilots today. If we want to be pilots, we unfortunately can't predict the up or down cycle when we finish our initial training and become employable.

Most of the pilots that started flying in the 90's had to flight instruct for a few thousand hours before finally landing a 19 seat turboprop job.

Me personally...flight instructed, 135 night freight, Air National Guard, 2 (non ALPA) regionals, survived a furlough after 9/11, survived several down cycles in the industry (including PFTer's who hurt the industry) all while trying to eventually land that major job. NWA is my 1st ALPA carrier. Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first? That's the suggestion in this tread. There are many thousands who have a similar career path as mine. Can you see why I disagree with your assessment?

There are too many issues to overcome to make this list reality. Like I said earlier, in theory it's a good idea.

Just my ramblings on why it will never work.

 

[HA25]

Bottom line... Compass and the other flowthru regionals will provide furlough fodder for the mainline when they park planes.. the days of growth, hiring and improved contracts are gone for a while.. at least here in the US. I'm off to an overseas job myself.

 

[DoinTime]

Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first?

Yes...that is the concept here. In this system if ALPA seniority is what is important to you thats what you seek out first. You had opportunities to be an ALPA pilot prior to your employ at NWA. You chose to not take them. The reduction in overall seniority would be your own fault.

 

[MJ42]

Yes...that is the concept here. In this system if ALPA seniority is what is important to you thats what you seek out first. You had opportunities to be an ALPA pilot prior to your employ at NWA. You chose to not take them.oh, really? The reduction in overall seniority would be your own fault.PURE BULL!

Well, that's the exact reason it will NEVER happen. Anyone who started flying in the late 80's to about 1998 is in this category that I described. A majority probably did not get on with an ALPA carrier until well established in the airline business. A lot of "Commuters" were not ALPA back then. Plus, what about my earlier question...what if a pilot gets furloughed from a non ALPA airline, such as American. They should be penalized if they then go to an ALPA carrier and end up junior, on some national list, to some 250 hour MAPD high school educated pilot? Nope, we all worked too hard at our career to allow that to happen...ALPA or not! Your theory about "our choice not to fly for an ALPA carrier" doesn't work and shows your lack of understanding about aviation history, hiring practices and choices that were NOT available several years ago. I guess that's typical for the "me" generation. (Wow, that sounds old...and I'm only in my mid 30's.)

What you don't seem to understand is that historically pilots took the first opportunity they were offered since jobs were scarce. Only in recent years pilots could, for the most part, chose their (regional)employer. You want to penalize people for something several years ago that was out of their control; flying for an ALPA carrier.

 

[DoinTime]

Well, that's the exact reason it will NEVER happen. Anyone who started flying in the late 80's to about 1998 is in this category that I described. A majority probably did not get on with an ALPA carrier until well established in the airline business. A lot of "Commuters" were not ALPA back then. Plus, what about my earlier question...what if a pilot gets furloughed from a non ALPA airline, such as American. They should be penalized if they then go to an ALPA carrier and end up junior, on some national list, to some 250 hour MAPD high school educated pilot? Nope, we all worked too hard at our career to allow that to happen...ALPA or not! Your theory about "our choice not to fly for an ALPA carrier" doesn't work and shows your lack of understanding about aviation history, hiring practices and choices that were NOT available several years ago. I guess that's typical for the "me" generation. (Wow, that sounds old...and I'm only in my mid 30's.)

What you don't seem to understand is that historically pilots took the first opportunity they were offered since jobs were scarce. Only in recent years pilots could, for the most part, chose their (regional)employer. You want to penalize people for something several years ago that was out of their control; flying for an ALPA carrier.

Why do you assume that you are a grizzled old veteran compared to me?

There is only one way to make an ALPA list and that is with ALPA pilots. You can choose to work for the APA or some scumbag non-union shop, thats your choice. Just don't expect anyone to have any sympathy for you because "you couldn't find an ALPA job." This isn't college, you can't transfer credits.

Sadly, pilots like you aren't the majority. When it comes time to make it happen you won't be able to stop it.

 

[MJ42]

Why do you assume that you are a grizzled old veteran compared to me? Your lack of knowledge of airline history regarding commuters, ALPA and lack of opportunities years ago. You may or may not be older than I presumed but I doubt you were in aviation in the mid 1990's.

There is only one way to make an ALPA list and that is with ALPA pilots. You can choose to work for the APA or some scumbag non-union shop, thats your choice. Just don't expect anyone to have any sympathy for you because "you couldn't find an ALPA job." This isn't college, you can't transfer credits.So, I guess you'll never go to Southwest because their not ALPA? How about UPS? American? AirTran? Jetblue? You want to limit your opportunities to ALPA carriers? No wonder you're still at a regional. I'd bet most ALPA regional pilots would give up their ALPA national number if their only offer was from one of these carriers. What happens then? Would they get their national # back if they came back to an ALPA carrier or would they start at the bottom like a seniority list should work?

Sadly, pilots like you aren't the majority.Huh? Happily, I beg to differ. But seems you have more contact with ALPA Regional pilots who tend to agree with you because they would benefit greatly from your idea. When it comes time to make it happen you won't be able to stop it.

I won't need to stop it, it will NEVER happen for numerous reasons.

 

[DoinTime]

So, I guess you'll never go to Southwest because their not ALPA? How about UPS? American? AirTran? Jetblue? You want to limit your opportunities to ALPA carriers? No wonder you're still at a regional. I'd bet most ALPA regional pilots would give up their ALPA national number if their only offer was from one of these carriers. What happens then? Would they get their national # back if they came back to an ALPA carrier or would they start at the bottom like a seniority list should work?

If I were take a job outside of ALPA I would not expect to carry an ALPA seniority number with it. Perhaps you have an unrealistic view of national seniority. You seem to think your number should be stamped when you get your commercial certificate. Perhaps that would be a great thing to accomplish but if you want to talk an impossible mission you just hit on it.

An ALPA national list IS something that could be accomplished provided the right framework was in place. You can bet though that the ALPA list will not be friendly to those who are not loyal. Rarely do Unions stand up for those who view them as a consequence of cashing in an opportunity.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Agree that a national list will not happen for many reasons. Mainly would be a US Airways type blood bath x1000.

But, (if you're a Comair FO as your profile states)you obviously feel this way because you would lose a lot of seniority. Anyone hired into a regional the last few years would be against it. Most pilots hired in the 2000's have no idea how historically difficult it has been to get an airline job and have never experienced it! Walking out of flight school and into a regional jet has NEVER happened except for the past few years. It's understandable you'd want to preserve your seniority.

On the other hand, what about the thousands of us who started flying in the early 1990's. Don't tell me it's all timing, I started flying in college at 19 and never had the same opportunities like pilots today. If we want to be pilots, we unfortunately can't predict the up or down cycle when we finish our initial training and become employable.

Most of the pilots that started flying in the 90's had to flight instruct for a few thousand hours before finally landing a 19 seat turboprop job.

Me personally...flight instructed, 135 night freight, Air National Guard, 2 (non ALPA) regionals, survived a furlough after 9/11, survived several down cycles in the industry (including PFTer's who hurt the industry) all while trying to eventually land that major job. NWA is my 1st ALPA carrier. Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first? That's the suggestion in this tread. There are many thousands who have a similar career path as mine. Can you see why I disagree with your assessment?

There are too many issues to overcome to make this list reality. Like I said earlier, in theory it's a good idea.

Just my ramblings on why it will never work.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Me...flight instructed, single pilot Baron charter, ACA-furloughed, back to single pilot charter, Comair--bankruptcy...where I took a $5000 a year paycut and watched 1/3 of our fleet evaporate, and am finally now looking at the possibility of upgrading. Point being, we all pay our dues one way or another and the fact that I've been an ALPA member since 2002 should mean something relative to the guy who has never flown a passenger in the 121 system in his life.

Like I said, it's not going to happen but I'll throw my $.02 in anyway.

KAK

 

[MJ42]

If I were take a job outside of ALPA I would not expect to carry an ALPA seniority number with it.What if, like in the mid 90's, YOU DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE if you got on with an ALPA carrier? Most "Commuters" were NOT ALPA then, in fact were any? Perhaps you have an unrealistic view of national seniority.Nope, just fair to all pilots, not just ALPA pilots. You seem to think your number should be stamped when you get your commercial certificate. Perhaps that would be a great thing to accomplish but if you want to talk an impossible mission you just hit on it. A national list would be just as hard. If 2 airlines can't agree(US Airways and America West), and 2 more look like a battle may start(NWA/DAL) how can 60,000 pilots at several different airlines(especially with ALPA now close to half regional pilots) agree on a national list?

An ALPA national list IS something that could be accomplished provided the right framework was in place. You can bet though that the ALPA list will not be friendly to those who are not loyal. Rarely do Unions stand up for those who view them as a consequence of cashing in an opportunity.

Loyalty to ALPA? What does that have to do with the pilot who only had offers from non ALPA carriers during slow hiring times? You still don't get that historically pilots have not been able to chose their employer, most took the first offer because nothing else was available!

I'm a loyal ALPA member, but it's not the savior you make it out to be! Whether you're ALPA or not, they should not determine your seniority fate as you suggest. You automatically assume everyone should have gotten hired at an ALPA carrier, that's not realistic thinking(especially in the 1990's).

Again, in theory it's plausible. It should have been done years ago when "commuters" were not around and the only members of ALPA were major airlines. Now, it would just benefit all those young guys who have yet to put the YEARS of dedication similar to thousands of my 1990's era peers(They will eventually, but haven't yet). You'll just continue to argue because you just want to get that seniority number you think you're entitled to!

One list...It'll NEVER happen!

 

[MJ42]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Me...flight instructed, single pilot Baron charter, ACA-furloughed, back to single pilot charter, Comair--bankruptcy...where I took a $5000 a year paycut and watched 1/3 of our fleet evaporate, and am finally now looking at the possibility of upgrading. Point being, we all pay our dues one way or another and the fact that I've been an ALPA member since 2002 should mean something relative to the guy who has never flown a passenger in the 121 system in his life.

Like I said, it's not going to happen but I'll throw my $.02 in anyway.

KAK

Yep, like most of us you've obviously been through the ringer too. But according to Doin time, as soon as you chose to take that charter job instead of an ALPA job you would lose your national seniority #. The only problem is...you probably didn't choose to take that charter job over an ALPA job, it was the only thing available, right? This makes my point on why one list (now) will not work. There is too much FATE involved. It's not your fault there wasn't an ALPA job available, it was just the state of the industry when ACA went under. But Doin time would seem to suggest it was your fault.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Yeah, okay...I can see what you're getting at. Maybe getting a number on the national seniority list once you become a member of ALPA and then losing one month of seniority for every four months you are out of employment at an ALPA carrier, or something like that (hypothetical numbers pulled out of my arse).

Interesting debate, anyway...

Take care.

 

[DoinTime]

Had the single list existed at the time of the ACA liquidation those pilots would have went on to exercise their seniority at other ALPA properties. I assume that there is no philosophical problem with that, right?

What we seem to be talking about here is how to create the single list in the first place. Its clearly a difficult process without a single answer but you can bet that your date of hire at your first ALPA carrier will be the first date looked at.

MJ42...I assume you were at Skywest judging by your a/c flown list and having never flown at a ALPA carrier. You may not of had much of a choice when you started there but you certainly made a choice to stay until you were hired at NWA. Had a single ALPA list existed at the time would you have bailed for the first ALPA carrier that would hire you or would you have continued to enjoy the relatively high pay (for a regional) and local seniority at your non-Union shop while waiting for that class at a major?

Maybe a single ALPA list would persuade the Skywest boys to Unionize. Maybe it will be the catalyst to merge in many of the independents. Maybe with a truly "National" pilot Union we can be more persuasive in Washington. Maybe with one list ALPA pilots will be able to get over the superiority complexes/victim mentalities that tear our Union at the seams. Maybe with one list we can enjoy our careers without fear of signing on to a carrier that later failed or a management group bent on self destruction.

Much can be gained from these kinds of large scale initiatives but it certainly won't happen until pilots are willing to put their personal circumstances behind them and support the greater good.