Reionals fate? Delta/NWA Merger?

[DoinTime]

Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first?

Yes...that is the concept here. In this system if ALPA seniority is what is important to you thats what you seek out first. You had opportunities to be an ALPA pilot prior to your employ at NWA. You chose to not take them. The reduction in overall seniority would be your own fault.

 

[MJ42]

Yes...that is the concept here. In this system if ALPA seniority is what is important to you thats what you seek out first. You had opportunities to be an ALPA pilot prior to your employ at NWA. You chose to not take them.oh, really? The reduction in overall seniority would be your own fault.PURE BULL!

Well, that's the exact reason it will NEVER happen. Anyone who started flying in the late 80's to about 1998 is in this category that I described. A majority probably did not get on with an ALPA carrier until well established in the airline business. A lot of "Commuters" were not ALPA back then. Plus, what about my earlier question...what if a pilot gets furloughed from a non ALPA airline, such as American. They should be penalized if they then go to an ALPA carrier and end up junior, on some national list, to some 250 hour MAPD high school educated pilot? Nope, we all worked too hard at our career to allow that to happen...ALPA or not! Your theory about "our choice not to fly for an ALPA carrier" doesn't work and shows your lack of understanding about aviation history, hiring practices and choices that were NOT available several years ago. I guess that's typical for the "me" generation. (Wow, that sounds old...and I'm only in my mid 30's.)

What you don't seem to understand is that historically pilots took the first opportunity they were offered since jobs were scarce. Only in recent years pilots could, for the most part, chose their (regional)employer. You want to penalize people for something several years ago that was out of their control; flying for an ALPA carrier.

 

[DoinTime]

Well, that's the exact reason it will NEVER happen. Anyone who started flying in the late 80's to about 1998 is in this category that I described. A majority probably did not get on with an ALPA carrier until well established in the airline business. A lot of "Commuters" were not ALPA back then. Plus, what about my earlier question...what if a pilot gets furloughed from a non ALPA airline, such as American. They should be penalized if they then go to an ALPA carrier and end up junior, on some national list, to some 250 hour MAPD high school educated pilot? Nope, we all worked too hard at our career to allow that to happen...ALPA or not! Your theory about "our choice not to fly for an ALPA carrier" doesn't work and shows your lack of understanding about aviation history, hiring practices and choices that were NOT available several years ago. I guess that's typical for the "me" generation. (Wow, that sounds old...and I'm only in my mid 30's.)

What you don't seem to understand is that historically pilots took the first opportunity they were offered since jobs were scarce. Only in recent years pilots could, for the most part, chose their (regional)employer. You want to penalize people for something several years ago that was out of their control; flying for an ALPA carrier.

Why do you assume that you are a grizzled old veteran compared to me?

There is only one way to make an ALPA list and that is with ALPA pilots. You can choose to work for the APA or some scumbag non-union shop, thats your choice. Just don't expect anyone to have any sympathy for you because "you couldn't find an ALPA job." This isn't college, you can't transfer credits.

Sadly, pilots like you aren't the majority. When it comes time to make it happen you won't be able to stop it.

 

[MJ42]

Why do you assume that you are a grizzled old veteran compared to me? Your lack of knowledge of airline history regarding commuters, ALPA and lack of opportunities years ago. You may or may not be older than I presumed but I doubt you were in aviation in the mid 1990's.

There is only one way to make an ALPA list and that is with ALPA pilots. You can choose to work for the APA or some scumbag non-union shop, thats your choice. Just don't expect anyone to have any sympathy for you because "you couldn't find an ALPA job." This isn't college, you can't transfer credits.So, I guess you'll never go to Southwest because their not ALPA? How about UPS? American? AirTran? Jetblue? You want to limit your opportunities to ALPA carriers? No wonder you're still at a regional. I'd bet most ALPA regional pilots would give up their ALPA national number if their only offer was from one of these carriers. What happens then? Would they get their national # back if they came back to an ALPA carrier or would they start at the bottom like a seniority list should work?

Sadly, pilots like you aren't the majority.Huh? Happily, I beg to differ. But seems you have more contact with ALPA Regional pilots who tend to agree with you because they would benefit greatly from your idea. When it comes time to make it happen you won't be able to stop it.

I won't need to stop it, it will NEVER happen for numerous reasons.

 

[DoinTime]

So, I guess you'll never go to Southwest because their not ALPA? How about UPS? American? AirTran? Jetblue? You want to limit your opportunities to ALPA carriers? No wonder you're still at a regional. I'd bet most ALPA regional pilots would give up their ALPA national number if their only offer was from one of these carriers. What happens then? Would they get their national # back if they came back to an ALPA carrier or would they start at the bottom like a seniority list should work?

If I were take a job outside of ALPA I would not expect to carry an ALPA seniority number with it. Perhaps you have an unrealistic view of national seniority. You seem to think your number should be stamped when you get your commercial certificate. Perhaps that would be a great thing to accomplish but if you want to talk an impossible mission you just hit on it.

An ALPA national list IS something that could be accomplished provided the right framework was in place. You can bet though that the ALPA list will not be friendly to those who are not loyal. Rarely do Unions stand up for those who view them as a consequence of cashing in an opportunity.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Agree that a national list will not happen for many reasons. Mainly would be a US Airways type blood bath x1000.

But, (if you're a Comair FO as your profile states)you obviously feel this way because you would lose a lot of seniority. Anyone hired into a regional the last few years would be against it. Most pilots hired in the 2000's have no idea how historically difficult it has been to get an airline job and have never experienced it! Walking out of flight school and into a regional jet has NEVER happened except for the past few years. It's understandable you'd want to preserve your seniority.

On the other hand, what about the thousands of us who started flying in the early 1990's. Don't tell me it's all timing, I started flying in college at 19 and never had the same opportunities like pilots today. If we want to be pilots, we unfortunately can't predict the up or down cycle when we finish our initial training and become employable.

Most of the pilots that started flying in the 90's had to flight instruct for a few thousand hours before finally landing a 19 seat turboprop job.

Me personally...flight instructed, 135 night freight, Air National Guard, 2 (non ALPA) regionals, survived a furlough after 9/11, survived several down cycles in the industry (including PFTer's who hurt the industry) all while trying to eventually land that major job. NWA is my 1st ALPA carrier. Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first? That's the suggestion in this tread. There are many thousands who have a similar career path as mine. Can you see why I disagree with your assessment?

There are too many issues to overcome to make this list reality. Like I said earlier, in theory it's a good idea.

Just my ramblings on why it will never work.

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Me...flight instructed, single pilot Baron charter, ACA-furloughed, back to single pilot charter, Comair--bankruptcy...where I took a $5000 a year paycut and watched 1/3 of our fleet evaporate, and am finally now looking at the possibility of upgrading. Point being, we all pay our dues one way or another and the fact that I've been an ALPA member since 2002 should mean something relative to the guy who has never flown a passenger in the 121 system in his life.

Like I said, it's not going to happen but I'll throw my $.02 in anyway.

KAK

 

[MJ42]

If I were take a job outside of ALPA I would not expect to carry an ALPA seniority number with it.What if, like in the mid 90's, YOU DIDN'T HAVE A CHOICE if you got on with an ALPA carrier? Most "Commuters" were NOT ALPA then, in fact were any? Perhaps you have an unrealistic view of national seniority.Nope, just fair to all pilots, not just ALPA pilots. You seem to think your number should be stamped when you get your commercial certificate. Perhaps that would be a great thing to accomplish but if you want to talk an impossible mission you just hit on it. A national list would be just as hard. If 2 airlines can't agree(US Airways and America West), and 2 more look like a battle may start(NWA/DAL) how can 60,000 pilots at several different airlines(especially with ALPA now close to half regional pilots) agree on a national list?

An ALPA national list IS something that could be accomplished provided the right framework was in place. You can bet though that the ALPA list will not be friendly to those who are not loyal. Rarely do Unions stand up for those who view them as a consequence of cashing in an opportunity.

Loyalty to ALPA? What does that have to do with the pilot who only had offers from non ALPA carriers during slow hiring times? You still don't get that historically pilots have not been able to chose their employer, most took the first offer because nothing else was available!

I'm a loyal ALPA member, but it's not the savior you make it out to be! Whether you're ALPA or not, they should not determine your seniority fate as you suggest. You automatically assume everyone should have gotten hired at an ALPA carrier, that's not realistic thinking(especially in the 1990's).

Again, in theory it's plausible. It should have been done years ago when "commuters" were not around and the only members of ALPA were major airlines. Now, it would just benefit all those young guys who have yet to put the YEARS of dedication similar to thousands of my 1990's era peers(They will eventually, but haven't yet). You'll just continue to argue because you just want to get that seniority number you think you're entitled to!

One list...It'll NEVER happen!

 

[MJ42]

Yeah, that's exactly what I'm saying.

Me...flight instructed, single pilot Baron charter, ACA-furloughed, back to single pilot charter, Comair--bankruptcy...where I took a $5000 a year paycut and watched 1/3 of our fleet evaporate, and am finally now looking at the possibility of upgrading. Point being, we all pay our dues one way or another and the fact that I've been an ALPA member since 2002 should mean something relative to the guy who has never flown a passenger in the 121 system in his life.

Like I said, it's not going to happen but I'll throw my $.02 in anyway.

KAK

Yep, like most of us you've obviously been through the ringer too. But according to Doin time, as soon as you chose to take that charter job instead of an ALPA job you would lose your national seniority #. The only problem is...you probably didn't choose to take that charter job over an ALPA job, it was the only thing available, right? This makes my point on why one list (now) will not work. There is too much FATE involved. It's not your fault there wasn't an ALPA job available, it was just the state of the industry when ACA went under. But Doin time would seem to suggest it was your fault.

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Yeah, okay...I can see what you're getting at. Maybe getting a number on the national seniority list once you become a member of ALPA and then losing one month of seniority for every four months you are out of employment at an ALPA carrier, or something like that (hypothetical numbers pulled out of my arse).

Interesting debate, anyway...

Take care.

 

[DoinTime]

Had the single list existed at the time of the ACA liquidation those pilots would have went on to exercise their seniority at other ALPA properties. I assume that there is no philosophical problem with that, right?

What we seem to be talking about here is how to create the single list in the first place. Its clearly a difficult process without a single answer but you can bet that your date of hire at your first ALPA carrier will be the first date looked at.

MJ42...I assume you were at Skywest judging by your a/c flown list and having never flown at a ALPA carrier. You may not of had much of a choice when you started there but you certainly made a choice to stay until you were hired at NWA. Had a single ALPA list existed at the time would you have bailed for the first ALPA carrier that would hire you or would you have continued to enjoy the relatively high pay (for a regional) and local seniority at your non-Union shop while waiting for that class at a major?

Maybe a single ALPA list would persuade the Skywest boys to Unionize. Maybe it will be the catalyst to merge in many of the independents. Maybe with a truly "National" pilot Union we can be more persuasive in Washington. Maybe with one list ALPA pilots will be able to get over the superiority complexes/victim mentalities that tear our Union at the seams. Maybe with one list we can enjoy our careers without fear of signing on to a carrier that later failed or a management group bent on self destruction.

Much can be gained from these kinds of large scale initiatives but it certainly won't happen until pilots are willing to put their personal circumstances behind them and support the greater good.

 

[MJ42]

Had the single list existed at the time of the ACA liquidation those pilots would have went on to exercise their seniority at other ALPA properties. I assume that there is no philosophical problem with that, right?What if an ALPA job wasn't available? Are you saying they could just bid for an open ALPA position? Would they be able to bump someone junior out of their seat? Would it cause furloughs?

What we seem to be talking about here is how to create the single list in the first place. Its clearly a difficult process without a single answer but you can bet that your date of hire at your first ALPA carrier will be the first date looked at. Nope, too many major guy have a lot to lose.

MJ42...I assume you were at Skywest judging by your a/c flown list and having never flown at a ALPA carrier. You may not of had much of a choice when you started there but you certainly made a choice to stay until you were hired at NWA. Had a single ALPA list existed at the time would you have bailed for the first ALPA carrier that would hire you or would you have continued to enjoy the relatively high pay (for a regional) and local seniority at your non-Union shop while waiting for that class at a major? Don't know, it never was a consideration because an ALPA "one list" wasn't a factor in ANYBODY'S decision back then.

Maybe a single ALPA list would persuade the Skywest boys to Unionize. Maybe it will be the catalyst to merge in many of the independents. Maybe with a truly "National" pilot Union we can be more persuasive in Washington. Maybe with one list ALPA pilots will be able to get over the superiority complexes/victim mentalities that tear our Union at the seams. Maybe with one list we can enjoy our careers without fear of signing on to a carrier that later failed or a management group bent on self destruction.But, then again, maybe not.

Much can be gained from these kinds of large scale initiatives but it certainly won't happen until pilots are willing to put their personal circumstances behind them and support the greater good. Much to be lost also.

Like kiddo said, it's an interesting topic. That's why I keep responding. But it will NOT happen.

From your other posts on different threads it seems you are interested in going to a major someday. By your one list suggestion you(personally) would have everything to gain and nothing to lose. You would leap over thousands who were hired at major ALPA carriers who came from different backgrounds than ALPA. These thousands of pilots would not let this happen. Do you want this one list for ALPA unity or personal gain? I'd guess personal gain because your career didn't go as expected.

If your proposal is for ALPA unity and career protection then how about one DOH ALPA list for majors and another for regionals? Start at the bottom when you get on at a major. I know you'll be against this, probably citing that we are all ALPA. But in reality, you would lose the THOUSANDS of seniority #'s that you'd otherwise have gained by your suggestion. OR...how about staple regionals after the last major? I know, you'll say this hurts the senior regional guys. But, using your thinking, they had plenty of opportunity to get on with a major over the years.

Instead of fairness for all pilots you seem to care more about personal gain disguised by a pro ALPA stance.

I (and thousand of others) have put too much blood, sweat and tears to get to career goals only to watch seniority be wiped out by some 250 hour high school educated wonder who was in ALPA first.

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[DoinTime]

We'll just have to agree to disagree.

I can agree with that.