Reionals fate? Delta/NWA Merger?

[WAZUP]

Is a Reional, a Mexican Airline Regional airline?

Royer?

I know, I'm an arse. Just puling you chain a bit.

"sometimes it is, sometimes it's not"

 

[DoinTime]

You sure about that?

The NWA guys are all saying the DC9's can't get parked without forcing RJ reductions. Delta has a little wiggle room under their scope (which may get bigger without Mesa) so a transfer to the Delta side seemed to make sense while they operate in the interim with NWA as a subsidiary.

The fleet requirements were a product of prior agreements. The bk contract allows unlimited 50-seaters and 90 51-76 seaters (provided Compass exists) with no regard to the narrow body fleet. There are provisions to increase the number of 51-76 seaters depending on future additions to the narrow body fleet.

I agree that if indeed the Delta guys are hanging the NW guys out to dry with their one sided negotiations with Delta (and it seems like they are) in this consolidation that the DC-9's will get cut (and other undesirable parts of the company) with the stoke of a pen. NW pilots will have little recourse as their company is chopped up without the protections of a combined list.

 

[Flyer1015]

You really need to look at our ASA before spewing off garbage like that...

You really need to look at your post history, sir....

When analyzed carefully-compared and contrasted with the erudite nectar flowing from the fingers of other posters on this or pretty much any other aviation site-it is impossible to arrive at any conclusion other than the truth.......

That truth being that your were, are, and in all likelihood will continue to be a booger-gnawing moron!

Um, you DO realize that by me saying "look at our ASA" means "look at Pinnacle's Airline Services Agreement."

The Airline Services Agreement, or ASA, spells out successorship rules, change of holding company, and rules for amounts of airplanes to be operated and under what conditions they can be swapped out.

You have NO knowledge of our ASA.

Instead, being the typical dumb ignorant pr*ck you are, you assumed I was talking about Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA the airline).

So tell us how you really feel. Idiots like you don't want to take the time to get the REAL facts behind the current topic being discussed. Instead, it's just "easier" to resort to calling others 'booger-gnawing moron.'

But hey, that's easier to do, than ACTUALLY read the applicable parts of the Pinnacle ASA... and again, that's the Airline Services Agreement.

 

[JoeMerchant]

I agree that if indeed the Delta guys are hanging the NW guys out to dry with their one sided negotiations with Delta (and it seems like they are) in this consolidation that the DC-9's will get cut (and other undesirable parts of the company) with the stoke of a pen. NW pilots will have little recourse as their company is chopped up without the protections of a combined list.

If that happens...will you still be such an ALPA cheerleader?

 

[CptMurf]

Um, you DO realize that by me saying "look at our ASA" means "look at Pinnacle's Airline Services Agreement."

The Airline Services Agreement, or ASA, spells out successorship rules, change of holding company, and rules for amounts of airplanes to be operated and under what conditions they can be swapped out.

You have NO knowledge of our ASA.

Instead, being the typical dumb ignorant pr*ck you are, you assumed I was talking about Atlantic Southeast Airlines (ASA the airline).

So tell us how you really feel. Idiots like you don't want to take the time to get the REAL facts behind the current topic being discussed. Instead, it's just "easier" to resort to calling others 'booger-gnawing moron.'

But hey, that's easier to do, than ACTUALLY read the applicable parts of the Pinnacle ASA... and again, that's the Airline Services Agreement.

Not trying to start anything or get invovled in your debate, but an ASA with NWA is not worth the paper it's written on. XJ had a brand new, nice and shiny 10 year ASA that was gutted and lasted about six months. Not to mention NWA may soon be called Delta, better read the successorship clauses carefully.

 

[DoinTime]

If that happens...will you still be such an ALPA cheerleader?

If that happens it will deepen my resolve that National needs to real in the autonomy of the MECs. For way to long have mainline MECs been allowed to do what pleases them regardless of the damage to other ALPA pilots and the profession. Division will weaken us all though so ALPA must be saved.

 

[Flyer1015]

Not trying to start anything or get invovled in your debate, but an ASA with NWA is not worth the paper it's written on. XJ had a brand new, nice and shiny 10 year ASA that was gutted and lasted about six months. Not to mention NWA may soon be called Delta, better read the successorship clauses carefully.

I apologize if I misunderstand the situation, but didn't MAIR declare bankruptcy first, and then through bankruptcy court, void the agreement?

 

[600rvr]

With Pinnacle's past performance under the "new" ASA, there is little doubt that NWA or any successor would have "cause" to terminate the ASA. (Think March 2007... I can only imagine how bad the service has been since) If Pinnacle is not gone within a year after the merger... then there will only be a couple hundred pilots flying 900s for Delta. My take.

 

[Raskal]

With Pinnacle's past performance under the "new" ASA, there is little doubt that NWA or any successor would have "cause" to terminate the ASA. (Think March 2007... I can only imagine how bad the service has been since) If Pinnacle is not gone within a year after the merger... then there will only be a couple hundred pilots flying 900s for Delta. My take.

Does it really matter? 9E is in an unfortunate position now, but once management is done convincing the two idiot/sellout/childlike pilot groups to beat the hell out of each other at the mainline(s), all the nwa airlink carriers will be next...this won't bode well for any of us.

 

[CptMurf]

I apologize if I misunderstand the situation, but didn't MAIR declare bankruptcy first, and then through bankruptcy court, void the agreement?

Yes and no. It was NWA's BK that voided our ASA. That's one reason I am thinking all of NWA's ASA's aren't worth much in a Delta/NWA merger with DAL on top.

 

[MJ42]

Does it really matter? 9E is in an unfortunate position now, but once management is done convincing the two idiot/sellout/childlike pilot groups to beat the hell out of each other at the mainline(s), all the nwa airlink carriers will be next...this won't bode well for any of us.

Um, don't forget, these pilot groups are the reason YOU have a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

 

[Smarta$$]

Um, don't forget, these pilot groups are the reason YOU have a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

NO, those pilot groups throwing scope out like it is an STD, is the reason we all have jobs.

 

[MJ42]

NO, those pilot groups throwing scope out like it is an STD, is the reason we all have jobs.

Correct, poor past decisions, nevertheless these pilots are still the reason you have a job. That may change really fast for all of us. The fluidity of this business is going to hit big time, and no one is immune. Hopefully past scope mistakes can be corrected.

Looks like WSurf was more accurate with his posts on the Compass thread than I gave him credit for, although my main argument was none of us can know what will happen in this cyclical downturn.

 

[DoinTime]

Correct, poor past decisions, nevertheless these pilots are still the reason you have a job.

Actually, if weren't for these pilots I'd most likely have a better job with some semblance of hope for better days in this profession.

 

[MJ42]

Actually, if weren't for these pilots I'd most likely have a better job with some semblance of hope for better days in this profession.

Where? At a major? Possibly, because there would be more major jobs and less regional jobs. In this current environment, what do you consider a better job? If not for scope, what would have been a better job? There are still a lot of good jobs out there, just need to work hard to find them and have the experience to get hired...seems like you have the experience, right?

 

[Raskal]

Um, don't forget, these pilot groups are the reason YOU have a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

I don't dispute that, however both of the groups (and I want to be clear when I refer to "the groups" I refer to the MECs, not the general pilot body) have shown extremely disappointing behavior during this whole thing. They have taken what could have been a reasonably good chance at building one of the strongest and most unified pilot bodies seen in a long time and turned it into a pathetic and whining pissing match causing more division than many ever thought possible.

The flow-through from XJ to NWA was never all that attractive to me, but it did offer some possibilities. Now, it's all the more reason to go elsewhere when and if the time is right-because it sure as hell won't be to either of our parent carriers.

 

[CptMurf]

Um, don't forget, these pilot groups are the reason YOU have a job. Don't bite the hand that feeds you!

I believe this saying works in both directions. You could not fill up a 74 without the SAAB's and CRJ's driving to smaller cities, just like we would not exist if not for the ASA's we have with mainline.

Like Red Green says, "We're all in this together!"

 

[contrail67]

The fleet requirements were a product of prior agreements. The bk contract allows unlimited 50-seaters and 90 51-76 seaters (provided Compass exists) with no regard to the narrow body fleet. There are provisions to increase the number of 51-76 seaters depending on future additions to the narrow body fleet.

I agree that if indeed the Delta guys are hanging the NW guys out to dry with their one sided negotiations with Delta (and it seems like they are) in this consolidation that the DC-9's will get cut (and other undesirable parts of the company) with the stoke of a pen. NW pilots will have little recourse as their company is chopped up without the protections of a combined list.

Just remember...they are renegotiating everything. They might be able to change alot of language too....including scope and who flys what equipment.

 

[Smarta$$]

Just remember...they are renegotiating everything. They might be able to change alot of language too....including scope and who flys what equipment.

Good. Put the jets where they belong. Not to the cheapest contract carrier.

 

[MJ42]

I believe this saying works in both directions. You could not fill up a 74 without the SAAB's and CRJ's driving to smaller cities, just like we would not exist if not for the ASA's we have with mainline.

Like Red Green says, "We're all in this together!"

True, airlines need feed. IMO as well as many others they need the kind of feed circa early 1990's, i.e. turboprops. Kinda like when regionals were used correctly, as "commuters", not like now. Regionals are not regional airlines at all. Now some are technically classified as Nationals and Majors.

Therefore, there are a lot more regional jobs because of relaxed scope. You don't see the 2500 hour flight instructor desperate to find a 19 seat turboprop job like years ago. Yes we are all in this together, but regionals have grown rapidly and your plethora of jobs are around because of (poor) decisions by the guys at the Majors.

Don't get me wrong, I came up through the regional ranks. But I would have gotten to a Major much sooner(even with the state of our industry) if regionals were regional airlines flying regional routes with turboprops.

So...no, it really doesn't work in both directions. There are less Major jobs because of expanding regionals. This hurts all of our career progression.

 

[Simon Says]

Correct, poor past decisions, nevertheless these pilots are still the reason you have a job. quote]

Come on......MJ42. I am not in debt to the NWA pilot group for my job. That is just crazy talk!

 

[Simon Says]

True, airlines need feed. IMO as well as many others they need the kind of feed circa early 1990's, i.e. turboprops. Kinda like when regionals were used correctly, as "commuters", not like now. Regionals are not regional airlines at all. Now some are technically classified as Nationals and Majors.

Therefore, there are a lot more regional jobs because of relaxed scope. You don't see the 2500 hour flight instructor desperate to find a 19 seat turboprop job like years ago. Yes we are all in this together, but regionals have grown rapidly and your plethora of jobs are around because of (poor) decisions by the guys at the Majors.

Don't get me wrong, I came up through the regional ranks. But I would have gotten to a Major much sooner(even with the state of our industry) if regionals were regional airlines flying regional routes with turboprops.

So...no, it really doesn't work in both directions. There are less Major jobs because of expanding regionals. This hurts all of our career progression.

AGREE!!!!!!! We would all be at a major airline quicker if scope was not released years ago, but since it has (and not by my doing) don't tell us regional guys that we owe mainline guys a our jobs.

I say bring anything without a prop on mainline property! You don't have to pay anymore, but we all want one list!

 

[MJ42]

AGREE!!!!!!! We would all be at a major airline quicker if scope was not released years ago, but since it has (and not by my doing) don't tell us regional guys that we owe mainline guys a our jobs.

I say bring anything without a prop on mainline property! You don't have to pay anymoreYES, THEY DO!!! WRONG ATTITUDE FOR IMPROVING OUR PROFESSION just to get a mainline seniority #., but we all want one list!

I never said you "owe" mainline guys for your job, I said there are more regional jobs because of mainline decisions.

 

[MJ42]

Correct, poor past decisions, nevertheless these pilots are still the reason you have a job. quote]

Come on......MJ42. I am not in debt to the NWA pilot group for my job. That is just crazy talk!

Yes, you are. Just like I am in debt to the guys who came before me. When guys start to realize this then this profession will begin to improve. Don't get this confused with my post above.

 

[Simon Says]

I never said you "owe" mainline guys for your job, I said there are more regional jobs because of mainline decisions.

I should of said initially get one list (family scope). Once the cows are coraled then pay can be worked on, but nothing can get done when the cows are grazing outside of the fence.

 

[i fly boxes]

I think that all the regionals who have contracts with Delta and Northwest, their contracts will be honered until they expire. At that point Delta will either sign a new contract with less 50 seaters, or get rid of them. The wholy owneds (mesaba compass comair) will probably be adjusted as Delta wants them, maybe bought off by other regionals who knows? This is going to take a long time to sort out, its not just going to happen overnight. Slowly, we will sadly see the Red Tail fade away, and for a person who has lived in a NWA base their whole life, I have to say thats kind of sad.

 

[Simon Says]

Yes, you are. Just like I am in debt to the guys who came before me. When guys start to realize this then this profession will begin to improve. Don't get this confused with my post above.

Well, different philosophy, but we both pretty much agree on the outcome.

 

[MJ42]

Well, different philosophy, but we both pretty much agree on the outcome.

Yep, hopefully we make it through this downward cycle with no furloughs.

 

[Torpid]

Is this going to be the new west coast hub?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPb4s0-QcI

 

[XJohXJ]

I should of said initially get one list (family scope). Once the cows are coraled then pay can be worked on, but nothing can get done when the cows are grazing outside of the fence.

Yes. ALPA MEC's must WORK TOGETHER, to protect all of our jobs TOGETHER. This is simple stuff, but it seems it is too simple for many pilots to understand:

Unity is strength. This is not just a slogan, but an absolute truth.

Airline managements are extremely proficient experts at another simple war strategy: Divide and conquer.