Reionals fate? Delta/NWA Merger?

[JoeMerchant]

Yes. ALPA MEC's must WORK TOGETHER, to protect all of our jobs TOGETHER. This is simple stuff, but it seems it is too simple for many pilots to understand:

Unity is strength. This is not just a slogan, but an absolute truth.

Airline managements are extremely proficient experts at another simple war strategy: Divide and conquer.

Why can't ALPA do this? They seem more worried in losing USAir dues.....There has never been any true "unity" in ALPA.....it has all been smoke and mirrors....

The chickens are coming home to roost....

 

[Striptyler]

Funny, and wrong thread for this but... IS it clear now why PAI bought colgan, and the Q400? How about is it clear why the Pinnacle Guys want the Q and non DAL/NWA flying on their side?

 

[Flyer1015]

Funny, and wrong thread for this but... IS it clear now why PAI bought colgan, and the Q400? How about is it clear why the Pinnacle Guys want the Q and non DAL/NWA flying on their side?

Um, we want a fair new contract. And we want our management to comply with the arbitrator's decisions, and not b*tch about how "the arbitrator's ruling doesn't affect/apply to the holding company." That whole holding company BS started by our management in an attempt to circumvent the provisions of our pilot contract.

 

[Poahi]

The next thread in the Majors section will be for the ALPA decertification push over at the Red Tail. These guys are going to get hit hard.

 

[DoinTime]

Why can't ALPA do this?

Joe, you must have some broken circuits in your head. In order for ALPA National to strip the MECs of their autonomy the board of directors would have to approve the action. Im sure you know exactly who the board of directors is comprised of and why its going to be so difficult for it to ever happen

 

[JoeMerchant]

Joe, you must have some broken circuits in your head. In order for ALPA National to strip the MECs of their autonomy the board of directors would have to approve the action. Im sure you know exactly who the board of directors is comprised of and why its going to be so difficult for it to ever happen

I realize that...just wondering what took you ALPA cheerleaders so long.....Now you are beginning to see the primary failure of this so called "union"....It isn't really a union and we aren't going to work together....

We either have autonomy and do what is best for ourselves at the harm of others....or we lose the autonomy.....Can't have it both ways.....

 

[Speedtape]

I realize that...just wondering what took you ALPA cheerleaders so long.....Now you are beginning to see the primary failure of this so called "union"....It isn't really a union and we aren't going to work together....

We either have autonomy and do what is best for ourselves at the harm of others....or we lose the autonomy.....Can't have it both ways.....

Unfortunately, I am starting to agree with you. It's more like the Bedouin Society--soon to be 10,000 strong, leading the other 51,000!

 

[Striptyler]

Um, we want a fair new contract. And we want our management to comply with the arbitrator's decisions, and not b*tch about how "the arbitrator's ruling doesn't affect/apply to the holding company." That whole holding company BS started by our management in an attempt to circumvent the provisions of our pilot contract.

Sounds like pre-programed propoganda there, but yet does nothing to answer the question.

Pinnacle Bought Colgan to diversify. Post Merger, should 9E get dropped, who's got a job still? yeah.

On the pilots side... Should all the CRJ flying stop... Wouldn't be wonderfull if you could simply move down to a Q400, displace a few pilots, and keep your job? yeah - But that only happens with a merged Sen. list.. right?

Not flaming, just sayin you would have to be blind not to see this one coming.

 

[Flyer1015]

Sounds like pre-programed propoganda there, but yet does nothing to answer the question.

Pinnacle Bought Colgan to diversify. Post Merger, should 9E get dropped, who's got a job still? yeah.

On the pilots side... Should all the CRJ flying stop... Wouldn't be wonderfull if you could simply move down to a Q400, displace a few pilots, and keep your job? yeah - But that only happens with a merged Sen. list.. right?

Not flaming, just sayin you would have to be blind not to see this one coming.

You clearly don't work for Pinnacle. And from the way it seems, you don't work at Colgan either.

"Post Merger, should 9E get dropped, who's got a job still?"

^
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Spoken like true management! I expect it from a-holes like them, not from pilots like you.

Wouldn't be wonderfull if you could simply move down to a Q400, displace a few pilots, and keep your job? yeah - But that only happens with a merged Sen. list.. right?

Where did that Q400 come from? Off whose back? Where did the money come from to buy Colgan? Oh, that's right, the convertible note that Pinnacle received (upwards of $300 million dollars) from NWA. Money earned off the backs of the hard working Pinnacle employees. Money used to buy another airline. Money used to set up the "Pinnacle Holding Company" purely to sidestep our contract (illegally) so they could violate our pilot contract, and not have provisions apply.

Like it or not, Colgan was bought out. Then they refused to let ALPA on their property. I hope Pinnacle alpa is able to enforce the arbitrator's rulings, and get our management to comply with the ruling. Merged seniority list? Yes, but I don't know exactly what the specifics would be to merge the list.

 

[Striptyler]

Spoken like true management! I expect it from a-holes like them, not from pilots like you.

quote]
Ahh.. was referring to the fact that MANAGMENT would still have a job.

Colgan would have the Q's one way or another. Had Pinnacle not bought us, somebody else would have. We would only be having the Q debate with somebody else. The Q's were in the original Contract award with CAL back in 04, as reward for the hard work, sweat and tears colgan pilots poured into getting an understaffed, unorganized, poorly run operatoin off the ground.

Heck, at 1 point, 9L was working with CAL to try to get CAL to flip the bill. They didn't, but would certainly look smart now had they.

Anyways, i am thinking right now ALPA's got bigger fish on the mind (NWA/DAL) PT and friends will stall untill the outcome from said merger.Should 9E get dropped... at that point i think there is little question what they would do. Otherwise, they will prob. come to the table... just slowly.

Sure, you can call me names, and make assumtions for whom i fly/dispatch For, or what desk i drive HQ. I really don't care either way. I've said it before, i will say it again. You were NEVER gonna get any of that money. How long has your contract date been up? What changes have you seen? What makes you think this will be any diffrent?


How bout, i feel bad for ANYBODY who's got a low Sen# at ANY company right now. I still see FO's running from colgan to Republic, dropping any Sen.# they had. I remember back in 02, we had guys with 15,000+ hours submitting App's.

 

[Dubya]

NO, those pilot groups throwing scope out like it is an STD, is the reason we all have jobs.

Which begs and even more important question. What does it mean when I pee and it burns?

W

 

[Flyer1015]

Colgan would have the Q's one way or another. Had Pinnacle not bought us, somebody else would have. We would only be having the Q debate with somebody else. The Q's were in the original Contract award with CAL back in 04, as reward for the hard work, sweat and tears colgan pilots poured into getting an understaffed, unorganized, poorly run operatoin off the ground.

Colgan has been losing money for Pinnacle "Holdings."

Heck, at 1 point, 9L was working with CAL to try to get CAL to flip the bill. They didn't, but would certainly look smart now had they.

... but they couldn't.

Sure, you can call me names, and make assumtions for whom i fly/dispatch For, or what desk i drive HQ. I really don't care either way. I've said it before, i will say it again. You were NEVER gonna get any of that money. How long has your contract date been up? What changes have you seen? What makes you think this will be any diffrent?

It will be 3 years exactly as of May 1. "We were never gonna get any of that money." All the more reason we should STFD!

What changes have we seen? Lets see, we've seen management stalling. We've seen management come unprepared and unwilling to work during the NMB negotiation sessions. We've seen management now asking for concessions on portions already TAed on, in exchange for things like 100% deadhead pay.

What makes "this" different? The fact than an arbitrator ruled in our favor, and not the "holding" company's favor. But those a-holes told the pilot group the arbitrator has no jurisdiction over the "holding" company. LMAO! I have to hand it to our management team for being the slimiest pieces of a-holes.

How bout, i feel bad for ANYBODY who's got a low Sen# at ANY company right now. I still see FO's running from colgan to Republic, dropping any Sen.# they had. I remember back in 02, we had guys with 15,000+ hours submitting App's.

Um, ok? The arbitrator ruled in our favor. We should merge the list. End a potential whipsaw that our management team is easily getting their teeth ready for. The arbitrator clearly saw our management's sneakiness.

My prediction? This may take a while in court. But in the end, we will win and get our management to merge the lists. As for how, I don't know. Probably have some fences here and there. But I don't know.

 

[HA25]

Therefore, there are a lot more regional jobs because of relaxed scope. You don't see the 2500 hour flight instructor desperate to find a 19 seat turboprop job like years ago. Yes we are all in this together, but regionals have grown rapidly and your plethora of jobs are around because of (poor) decisions by the guys at the Majors.

There my friends is a guy who knows what's going on! LISTEN TO HIM.

If the ALPA/APA pilots at the majors would demand one seniority list and one contract, none of this "regional" and "Major" crap would exist.. We've aided and abetted in this mess and managers at airlines all over couldn't be happier with our stupidity.

 

[rickair7777]

There my friends is a guy who knows what's going on! LISTEN TO HIM.

If the ALPA/APA pilots at the majors would demand one seniority list and one contract, none of this "regional" and "Major" crap would exist.. We've aided and abetted in this mess and managers at airlines all over couldn't be happier with our stupidity.

The problem with one-list is that a ten year LCDR with 1900 hours in the hornet, 6 air medals, and a DFC would end up a reserve 1900 FO... clearly unacceptable.

 

[79%N1]

The problem with one-list is that a ten year LCDR with 1900 hours in the hornet, 6 air medals, and a DFC would end up a reserve 1900 FO... clearly unacceptable.

Yep, and that right there is how this whole mess got started.......the sense of entitlement by some that they deserved only to fly the big iron, and the props and barbie's should be flown only by those less deserving.

 

[HA25]

The problem with one-list is that a ten year LCDR with 1900 hours in the hornet, 6 air medals, and a DFC would end up a reserve 1900 FO... clearly unacceptable.

Wasn't taking about 1900's... talking about E170+ sized jets and taking about making the pay on those in-line with "Mainline".. that would be acceptable.

 

[DoinTime]

The problem with one-list is that a ten year LCDR with 1900 hours in the hornet, 6 air medals, and a DFC would end up a reserve 1900 FO... clearly unacceptable.

No....not unacceptable at all. To think it is is pure elitism.

 

[Blade Runner]

The problem with one-list is that a ten year LCDR with 1900 hours in the hornet, 6 air medals, and a DFC would end up a reserve 1900 FO... clearly unacceptable.

You just don't get it do you?
This is not a merit based system, it is a first come first serve, right place right time, seniority based system.
Your LCDR should have remained in the NAVY and
recieved a well deserved promotion. But then again is the Military a true merit based sytem itself, or just another clique of savy political officers greasing their skids (so to speak) at the expense of others?
I digress and will save that argument for a later day.

 

[MJ42]

You just don't get it do you?
This is not a merit based system, it is a first come first serve, right place right time, seniority based system.
Your LCDR should have remained in the NAVY and
recieved a well deserved promotion. But then again is the Military a true merit based sytem itself, or just another clique of savy political officers greasing their skids (so to speak) at the expense of others?
I digress and will save that argument for a later day.

NO, You Don't get it! I'm surprised, especially from another C-130 guy.

I'll take a Military Aviator any day over those guys who bought their job by paying for training in the mid to late 1990's.

If you want a merit based system then how about go by the date each pilot received their Comm, Inst, ME rating or if military the date they got their wings.

This way those PFTers that bypassed seniority (and still attempt to gain even more by their one list methodology) won't screw those of us who didn't buy a job. Also, this would be fair to those who chose to severe in the military. Furthermore, corporate guys who had the desire to fly at a major but decided to go another career route than a regional would not be penalized by my suggestion.

Any way you look at it, it's not going to happen. If it does it will be well after most of us retire. Just because you fly a few years at a 121 regional shouldn't mean you get to leapfrog corporate guys that maybe didn't have the same opportunities(because of lack of jobs in the 1990's) as you, or military pilots who chose to serve our country.

We all choose different routes to get to our goal, you guys seem to want to penalize those that chose a route different from yours!

Keep dreamin!

 

[HA25]

NO, You Don't get it! I'm surprised, especially from another C-130 guy.

I'll take a Military Aviator any day over those guys who bought their job by paying for training in the mid to late 1990's.

If you want a merit based system then how about go by the date each pilot received their Comm, Inst, ME rating or if military the date they got their wings.

This way those PFTers that bypassed seniority (and still attempt to gain even more by their one list methodology) won't screw those of us who didn't buy a job. Also, this would be fair to those who chose to severe in the military. Furthermore, corporate guys who had the desire to fly at a major but decided to go another career route than a regional would not be penalized by my suggestion.

Any way you look at it, it's not going to happen. If it does it will be well after most of us retire. Just because you fly a few years at a 121 regional shouldn't mean you get to leapfrog corporate guys that maybe didn't have the same opportunities(because of lack of jobs in the 1990's) as you, or military pilots who chose to serve our country.

We all choose different routes to get to our goal, you guys seem to want to penalize those that chose a route different from yours!

Keep dreamin!

No.. no.. you don't get it! btw, I like your posts for the most part and been reading a lot of them in research on Compass but I have to agree with the above.. it's 90% timing and 10% merit in this business. Timing decides if the military is hiring and timing decides when the economy dictates when airlines hire and timing is when you get the interview, and what seniority you're assigned as a result..

timing..

 

[DoinTime]

NO, You Don't get it! I'm surprised, especially from another C-130 guy.

I'll take a Military Aviator any day over those guys who bought their job by paying for training in the mid to late 1990's.

If you want a merit based system then how about go by the date each pilot received their Comm, Inst, ME rating or if military the date they got their wings.

This way those PFTers that bypassed seniority (and still attempt to gain even more by their one list methodology) won't screw those of us who didn't buy a job. Also, this would be fair to those who chose to severe in the military. Furthermore, corporate guys who had the desire to fly at a major but decided to go another career route than a regional would not be penalized by my suggestion.

We are not talking about a national general pilot seniority list here. We are talking about a national ALPA seniority list. If someone wants to screw off and do something else for awhile thats their prerogative but they don't get a place holder on the ALPA seniority list. The ALPA list is for ALPA pilots.

Any way you look at it, it's not going to happen. If it does it will be well after most of us retire. Just because you fly a few years at a 121 regional shouldn't mean you get to leapfrog corporate guys that maybe didn't have the same opportunities(because of lack of jobs in the 1990's) as you, or military pilots who chose to serve our country.

Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.

 

[Superpilot92]

Yep, and that right there is how this whole mess got started.......the sense of entitlement by some that they deserved only to fly the big iron, and the props and barbie's should be flown only by those less deserving.

BINGO!! DING DING DING!!

 

[CFI2766]

Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.[/quote]

Couldn't agree more.

We don't have a merit system. It really is based off of when you 'got in line.' If you don't like it, well, frankly, don't play.

The seniority system is unjust to everyone in the 121 world at some point in their careers. However, in the end, it results in the most overall equality and quality of life for those involved.

The assertion that 'fighter' time makes one a better airline pilot than one who has slogged through the regional path is inaccurate. Need bombs on target, on time? Fly with the fighter guy. Need to get passengers to their destination, with customer service, on day 5 of a scheduled 4 day trip? Fly with the airline guy.

Sure, military time makes good military pilots. I'm not going to be convinced that the military pilot is by definition a better pilot than the airline pilot who went the civilian route.

 

[MJ42]

We are not talking about a national general pilot seniority list here. We are talking about a national ALPA seniority list. If someone wants to screw off and do something else for awhile thats their prerogative but they don't get a place holder on the ALPA seniority list. The ALPA list is for ALPA pilots.




Ironically, what you suggest is corporate and military guys being able to "leapfrog" other established pilots on a Union seniority list. Seniority always has been and always will be first come, first serve. Military and corporate guys make a choice when they choose what they do. They can't have their cake and eat it to.

Ok, fair enough. So, it's more of an ALPA thing you suggest. Still have a problem with those PFTers that paid for their job(seniority) and still will benefit at others expense.

What about those not in ALPA like American and Southwest?

Like FMS said it's all about timing, I fully agree. But, the airline industry is so cyclical, therefore, it seems if a guy was unlucky by starting aviation during a down cycle then he would be penalized by your "one list".

Example: Early 90's...no jobs. A pilot wants to fly for a major someday but takes 1st job he can get since no one is hiring. Gets on with an ok corporate gig and is unable to leave(start at 1st year pay) to go to a regional for that APLA seniority #. Fast forward...Young guy gets hired early at an ALPA carrier during a regional hiring boom. Upgrades fast, already has that ALPA # you talk about. Both were working for the same goal(major airline). Both get hired by a major at same time. Yet young guy is years senior to corporate guy who has tons more experience as well as blood and sweat invested in his career. I just don't think that is fair.

Believe me, there are a ton of pilots(including me) who fall into a similar career path.

There would be just too much heartburn with an ALPA "one list" as you suggest.

Disclaimer: above example is not my career path.

Also, what if a pilot leaves an ALPA regional to go to American then gets furloughed? Do they lose their ALPA seniority once they went to American? What if they get hire by another ALPA carrier while on furlough, do they get ALPA seniority back and then leapfrog up the seniority list to their ALPA seniority?

I know, so many what if's...but this is why one list will not work. In theory it seems great, in reality it's not practical.

 

[rickair7777]

No....not unacceptable at all. To think it is is pure elitism.

Not elitism, just facts of life. That's the way the people who are in a position to make those decisions think.

Just pointing out the reality for those who may not understand that perspective.

And the majority of those military guys are better than the majority of civilian guys. They were more heavily screened at the entry-level, and were pushed FAR harder during their military stint...that does make a difference.

 

[rickair7777]

You just don't get it do you?
This is not a merit based system, it is a first come first serve, right place right time, seniority based system.
Your LCDR should have remained in the NAVY and
recieved a well deserved promotion. But then again is the Military a true merit based sytem itself, or just another clique of savy political officers greasing their skids (so to speak) at the expense of others?
I digress and will save that argument for a later day.

I was actually being sarcastic.

But I do get it, more clearly than 95% of the pilots out there...I did civilian flight training and commercial flying AND served as a military officer for years, I know both sides of that fence.

What's the right answer? It depends on where you come from....

Civilians would prefer one list, DOH. This would solve a lot of problems.

The senior guys at all the unions are largely ex-military, as is the culture at the top of all major airline pilot groups. They see a brother, a ten-year veteran who busted his ass for years, has a BS and a masters, has thrived in an environment where competition and high standards weeds out many. It's hard for those folks to stomach the idea that their guy should be junior to a 22 y/o "riddle-diddle", or an ATP 90-day wonder with a online-GED.

In this case there is no right answer, only the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

 

[MJ42]

I was actually being sarcastic.

But I do get it, more clearly than 95% of the pilots out there...I did civilian flight training and commercial flying AND served as a military officer for years, I know both sides of that fence.

What's the right answer? It depends on where you come from....

Civilians would prefer one list, DOH. This would solve a lot of problems.

The senior guys at all the unions are largely ex-military, as is the culture at the top of all major airline pilot groups. They see a brother, a ten-year veteran who busted his ass for years, has a BS and a masters, has thrived in an environment where competition and high standards weeds out many. It's hard for those folks to stomach the idea that their guy should be junior to a 22 y/o "riddle-diddle", or an ATP 90-day wonder with a online-GED.

In this case there is no right answer, only the golden rule...he who has the gold makes the rules.

Very well said!

 

[KingAirKiddo]

Folks, rule number one in the airlines is that seniority rules. If these former military or corporate guys came to my airline, they'd be junior to me serving as my FO. They should be junior to me on a national seniority list also, period.

Having said that, a national seniority list is probably just a theoretical pipedream anyway.

 

[MJ42]

Folks, rule number one in the airlines is that seniority rules. If these former military or corporate guys came to my airline, they'd be junior to me serving as my FO. If they came to your airline then it would be their choice, but most will be competitive without the need to go to a regional. Why penalize seniority of someone with major airline aspirations just because they choose a different career path They should be junior to me on a national seniority list also, period.

Having said that, a national seniority list is probably just a theoretical pipedream anyway.

Agree that a national list will not happen for many reasons. Mainly would be a US Airways type blood bath x1000.

But, (if you're a Comair FO as your profile states)you obviously feel this way because you would lose a lot of seniority. Anyone hired into a regional the last few years would be against it. Most pilots hired in the 2000's have no idea how historically difficult it has been to get an airline job and have never experienced it! Walking out of flight school and into a regional jet has NEVER happened except for the past few years. It's understandable you'd want to preserve your seniority.

On the other hand, what about the thousands of us who started flying in the early 1990's. Don't tell me it's all timing, I started flying in college at 19 and never had the same opportunities like pilots today. If we want to be pilots, we unfortunately can't predict the up or down cycle when we finish our initial training and become employable.

Most of the pilots that started flying in the 90's had to flight instruct for a few thousand hours before finally landing a 19 seat turboprop job.

Me personally...flight instructed, 135 night freight, Air National Guard, 2 (non ALPA) regionals, survived a furlough after 9/11, survived several down cycles in the industry (including PFTer's who hurt the industry) all while trying to eventually land that major job. NWA is my 1st ALPA carrier. Do you think some pilot who landed a job at 250 hours last year should be senior to me because he was in ALPA first? That's the suggestion in this tread. There are many thousands who have a similar career path as mine. Can you see why I disagree with your assessment?

There are too many issues to overcome to make this list reality. Like I said earlier, in theory it's a good idea.

Just my ramblings on why it will never work.

 

[HA25]

Bottom line... Compass and the other flowthru regionals will provide furlough fodder for the mainline when they park planes.. the days of growth, hiring and improved contracts are gone for a while.. at least here in the US. I'm off to an overseas job myself.