Game On

[B19 Flyer]

I think you are confused. You are the FUD poster. Not me.

If you fear facts, and it's clear that you do, I'll take the FUD label because I only post and quote facts.

 

[fischman]

I care about non-union employees because they are much more dedicated to aviation than union employees are. They aren't in it for the money, they are in it for the mission.

Bullsh!t

 

[fischman]

If you fear facts, and it's clear that you do, I'll take the FUD label because I only post and quote facts.

I don't fear facts. I fear some weak minded individual will actually take you seriously and crash because he was too afraid to do a write up.

You sir, are bad for aviation and aviation safety.

 

[gunfyter]

Bullsh!t

You beat me to it.


Its like saying there are hospital workers more dedicated to Medicine than Doctors. Doctors are just in it for the money.

"Pilots are to Aviation as Doctors are to medicine."

​

Thats straight from the College Board SAT question I think.

 

[Galaxy]

Damn-I had him on ignore and I still had to read this:

I care about non-union employees because they are much more dedicated to aviation than union employees are. They aren't in it for the money, they are in it for the mission.
-B19

Bob, they are there because it is better to work there than the Burger King take out window in the winter in CGF

 

[gunfyter]

Don't fall for the B19 union busting 101 trick of trying to place a wedge between you and your fellow workers.

 

[ProFracPilot]

They aren't in it for the money, they are in it for the mission.

Ok. I'll take the bait.

By making the above statement one can only conclude you're advocating mission first. I can assure you, union or no, it is in the frac pilots nature to be mission oriented. However the PROFESSIONALS that I have and currently fly with have our priorities straight: SAFETY first, then mission. It is the mission first (safety be damned) attitude that gets people killed.

When our management begins to demonstrate that they truly advocate SAFETY first, then we'll find the number of write-ups will naturally decline. This will happen because they will be compelled to properly repair aircraft in a timely manner. Unfortunately this will not happen at FlOps prior to a CBA.

 

[netjetwife]

Excellent points, gentlemen!! Gunfyter said what we all know to be the hidden agenda behind the fudspinner's posts. GF, that analogy is so true that it needs to be repeated...

"Pilots are to Aviation as Doctors are to medicine."

 

[netjetwife]

Q: Why do fudspinners reek?

A: Because they're full of ...

Bullsh!t

Fischman made the motion; Gunfyter gave us the second and the majority of posters agree. With all the fudspinner's BS on the board maybe I need to switch to my black cowboy boots...

 

[Fozzy]

I work to live, not live to work.

I care about non-union employees because they are much more dedicated to aviation than union employees are. They aren't in it for the money, they are in it for the mission.

You are such a tool!

Thank you for responding to my post. You have truly shown what an a$s you are......again.

I bet you would be supportive of slave labor.

 

[gunfyter]

And what this means is ...

There are important workers in Hospitals whose expertise has nothing to do with medicine. Accountants, Lawyers, Administrators, medical billing, food services, etc..

Aviation companies similarly have workers not directly involved in making airplanes airworthy or moving them through the skies.

But if I am an accountant or IT specialist... I could just as easily be dedicated to my field of specialty in some other industry and care less whether I had anything remotely to do with airplanes... or a Hospital for that matter. To say that these professionals, as dedicated to their trade as they may be, are more dedicated to Aviation or Medicine than Pilots and Doctors ... is nonsensical.

We respect workers in every trade and occupation. But it is sometimes Managements that refuse to treat Professional Pilots correctly in terms of compensation and QOL issues that create the problems and a need for the workers to take a stand.

 

[B19 Flyer]

You are such a tool!

Thank you for responding to my post. You have truly shown what an a$s you are......again.

I bet you would be supportive of slave labor.

Non union employees are much safer and more prevelent throughout aviation than union employees. They understand that flying IS the mission.

In union airlines, flying the mission means the chest pounding rhetoric of a union pilot who thinks that the industry couldn't exist without them.

There are lots of non-union airlines that have safety records that exceed NJ that don't require the additional layers of committees and internal labor groups like a union thinks should exist that drive up cost needlessly.

Non-union employees are much more passionate about flying and operating an aircraft safely than union pilots. They are safer, more focused and have fewer distractions than union pilots.

I've repeatedly seen unsafe pilots make it through the grievance process even with their union reps in agreement with the company on firing them behind the scenes.

One last though, slave labor usually doesn't have six figures with a period at the end.

 

[Fozzy]

Non union employees are much safer and more preve(a)lent throughout aviation than union employees. They understand that flying IS the mission.
Good little solders. Work hard and do their job. Sounds a lot like the management meetings we had with Boisture and "the General". Sorry jacka$s we are not your troops and here to take your commands. Sorry.
In union airlines, flying the mission means the chest pounding rhetoric of a union pilot who thinks that the industry couldn't exist without them.
I have no misconceptions. I need those fine folks to back me up. I am a blue collar worker. But the fact remains, we can teach folks the support job in a few months down to a few days. Pilots, not so easy.

There are lots of non-union airlines that have safety records that exceed NJ that don't require the additional layers of committees and internal labor groups like a union thinks should exist that drive up cost needlessly.
Who? Lets name some examples if you are going to make statements.
Next, you really don't know what we have or need here at NJA, so you should probably just give up on this one. No facts or clue.

Non-union employees are much more passionate about flying and operating an aircraft safely than union pilots. They are safer, more focused and have fewer distractions than union pilots.
Again, lets see some FACTS, stats and references. FACTS PLEASE, or you are just full of $hit.

I've repeatedly seen unsafe pilots make it through the grievance process even with their union reps in agreement with the company on firing them behind the scenes.
And I have seen pilots in non union enviroments allowed to keep their job because they were management kiss a$s's. And I have seen management folks stay in their position after they have made unsafe decisions, and made a whole slew of questionable decisions. Kept around because of the old boy (management) network.

One last though, slave labor usually doesn't have six figures with a period at the end.

But a pilot should.

See above

 

[CA1900]

I bet you would be supportive of slave labor.

"Can't get around the old minimum wage, Mortimer..."

 

[netjetwife]

.... To say that these professionals, as dedicated to their trade as they may be, are more dedicated to Aviation or Medicine than Pilots and Doctors ... is nonsensical.

We respect workers in every trade and occupation. But it is sometimes Managements that refuse to treat Professional Pilots correctly in terms of compensation and QOL issues that create the problems and a need for the workers to take a stand.

Very well said! Pilot wages are a cost of doing business just like the fuel that goes into the planes. Responsible managers recognize that fact and build the budget accordingly.

PENNY WISE, POUND FOOLISH METHODS NEED TO GET THE BOOT

 

[hogbody]

Message to Scheeringa

B-19,

Please take this to Mr. Scheeringa:

If Flight Options management went to an aircraft manufacturer and demanded new aircraft at a price well below the going rate, the seller of airplanes would laugh. If FO management whined "No, you've got to sell at the price we want or we'll go out of business", the manufacturer would say 'tango sierra', you can just go out of business.

If management went to the fuel sellers and told them "You have to sell us jet-A for $2/gal, or we will go out of business", then the fuel folks would say "so be it, you're out of business".

Same with hotel chains, airlines, caterers and the other vendors who support Flight Options. They just wouldn't care, and certainly would not subsidize Flight Options and their wealthy clientele by selling their products/services at below cost.

So now we're down to the employees, particularly the pilots. Nothing is any different. Give them the industry standard compensation, benefits and quality of life they were promised. You say you don't have the money. I don't care. Come up with it, or close the freaking doors.

P.S. There are other jobs out there and your employees are finding them and leaving in droves.

 

[netjetwife]

Fozzy, while many frac pilots do perform services for their pax (like loading bags, cleaning the plane, etc) that can be classified as "blue collar" the shirt changes color when the flight crew steps into the cockpit--or climbs in, as the case may be. As you correctly noted, aviation skills take much longer to acquire than typical jobs usually referred to as "blue collar" and the experience rightly demanded by the owners is gained over years of flying time. For most frac pilots it's an interesting mix of blue and white, but the term professional covers it all.

CONTRACTS ARE COMMON PLACE IN OUR ECONOMY ESPECIALLY AMONG PROFESSIONALS. DOESN'T A PILOT'S CAREER DESERVE AS MUCH INVESTMENT PROTECTION AS A HOUSE BEING BUILT?

UPPER MANAGEMENT TEAMS WANT TO DENY FRAC PILOTS A CONTRACT BUT THEY TAKE THEIR OWN FOR GRANTED. CAN YOU SAY HYPOCRITICAL? I THOUGHT YOU COULD.

 

[SilverSurfer]

The missing link

Normally I wouldn't do anything that would further the mission of this POS Bob/B19. I have him all by himself on my ignore list so I don't have the threads I read cluttered up with his horseSh!t and would not have to know what his latest crap is except a few of you that still insist on playing his game.


Relative to this latest crock of crap he wants you guys to swallow, there is one very important piece of information that he is not giving you. Before the courts can hand down the injunction and subsequent fine such as the one that he has displayed here, there has to be substantial evidence that the illegal job action was sanctioned by, supported by , or initiated by the union. The union can not be held liable for the actions of a single pilot or a group of pilots that might be deemed as a direct attack on the operations of the company. In the case that moron boy posted there was evidence that the MEC had culpability in organizing the "irregular MX practices" and as such made them a party to the illegal actions.

Our leadership has been very clear in their communications to us that we are to never do anything illegal for or against the company. But along with that they have emphasized our professional responsibility to discover and document any and all discrepancies when and where they are discovered. If thats at a MX base so be it, if it is in podunk so be it, live leg or not, makes no difference. None of this is against the law. Floptions management has tried to prove on many occasions with many different pilots that their MX discrepancies were some how improper or illegal. To date they have not been able to hang any improper or illegal action on a pilot for his MX discrepancy history. The crappy MX practices that Floptions management perpetuates are the reason that we have low dispatch reliability and the high number of owner dis services we regularly see.

Don't let this moron Bob/B19 blow smoke up you a$$. He is here for no other reason the to cast doubt and fear in what ever weak minded pilots he can. Other wise known as spreading FUD.

Put him on your ignore list and lets all make him more irrelevant then he already is.

 

[netjetwife]

It worked for me, too, Silver. I'm here to have honest, relevant discussions about current events in the frac industry. My boots come in handy for stepping over fud puddles to get to the posts worth reading and responding to. Best Wishes to you and your family! NJW

Good post, Hog! That's what I meant by saying that the pilot wages are a cost of doing business. Thanks for expounding on that idea...

 

[theskyking]

Non union employees are much safer and more prevelent throughout aviation than union employees. They understand that flying IS the mission.

In union airlines, flying the mission means the chest pounding rhetoric of a union pilot who thinks that the industry couldn't exist without them.

There are lots of non-union airlines that have safety records that exceed NJ that don't require the additional layers of committees and internal labor groups like a union thinks should exist that drive up cost needlessly.

Non-union employees are much more passionate about flying and operating an aircraft safely than union pilots. They are safer, more focused and have fewer distractions than union pilots.

I've repeatedly seen unsafe pilots make it through the grievance process even with their union reps in agreement with the company on firing them behind the scenes.

One last though, slave labor usually doesn't have six figures with a period at the end.

I didn't think you could do it, B19. You've taken absurdity to a new low. Seeing as you set the previous low, you are outdoing yourself.

I was a pilot at a non-union airline prior to coming to NJ. I certainly wasn't any more passionate about my flying there than I am here. If anything, I always dealt with management changing policy without regard to the non-union workforce. To say a non-union workforce is less distracted than a union was is preposterous. As a union worker, all I have to do is do my job. I know that the rules won't change without warning. Seems like that allows me to concentrate on being a safe pilot because all the other variables are taken care of.

At least that is how it has worked out for me in my experience in both the union and non-union work force.

 

[FR8DOG777]

Thank you Guys

I just wanted to say thank you to Fozzy, Gunfighter, Fishy, Nj wife, and the many other sensible nj pilots that have supported us through this ordeal. I will openly admit I struggle with the resolve to stay her on a daily basis. Yes, it has gone down from getting pissed off a few days before I start work to wanting to walk off the job on a daily basis. I work to live, not live to work has long since infultrated my daily life. I remember when I could go to work do a good job, have some appreciation shown for my efforts and live a somewhat satisfactory livelihood. If we had 25 percent of the pilots working here that had the same ideology as fozz and gunfighter this would have been over along time ago. I appreciate all the support our fellow brothers from netjets have given us in this time of need. For the nonbelievers that have thrown incertainty in the air due to the untimely departure from the 1108, I offer this solution. Carlos Guillem and David Marker will welcome you openly into their fopa cult at any time. cheers

 

[fischman]

I just wanted to say thank you to Fozzy, Gunfighter, Fishy, Nj wife, and the many other sensible nj pilots that have supported us through this ordeal. I will openly admit I struggle with the resolve to stay her on a daily basis. Yes, it has gone down from getting pissed off a few days before I start work to wanting to walk off the job on a daily basis. I work to live, not live to work has long since infiltrated my daily life. I remember when I could go to work do a good job, have some appreciation shown for my efforts and live a somewhat satisfactory livelihood. If we had 25 percent of the pilots working here that had the same ideology as fozz and gunfighter this would have been over along time ago. I appreciate all the support our fellow brothers from netjets have given us in this time of need. For the nonbelievers that have thrown uncertainty in the air due to the untimely departure from the 1108, I offer this solution. Carlos Guillem and David Marker will welcome you openly into their fopa cult at any time. cheers

Cheers man. And seriously, "Don't do anything illegal for or against the company." Follow that mantra and you will be just fine.

This guy is going to get someone killed someday with his rhetoric. I SINCERELY hope no one takes him seriously.

 

[fischman]

Non union employees are much safer and more prevelent throughout aviation than union employees. They understand that flying IS the mission. WRONG AGAIN!!! Flying in a safe manner that provides an unparalleled experince is the mission. Any boob (you) can fly an airplane.

In union airlines, flying the mission means the chest pounding rhetoric of a union pilot who thinks that the industry couldn't exist without them. sigh...

There are lots of non-union airlines that have safety records that exceed NJ that don't require the additional layers of committees and internal labor groups like a union thinks should exist that drive up cost needlessly. Name one. Tell me about 1 airline that has been around as long as NetJets (1986) that flies to over 1800 destinations in the U.S. alone that can exceed our safety record. THERE ARE NONE.

Non-union employees are much more passionate about flying and operating an aircraft safely than union pilots. They are safer, more focused and have fewer distractions than union pilots. How? How is a non-union pilot more safe than me?

I've repeatedly seen unsafe pilots make it through the grievance process even with their union reps in agreement with the company on firing them behind the scenes. And this has NEVER happened to a non-union pilot right? Grow up.

One last though, slave labor usually doesn't have six figures with a period at the end. $19,000 a year? Is that close enough?

You are going to get someone killed.

 

[netjetwife]

FR8Dog, you're very welcome to my support. I pledged it when I first encouraged your group to make a stand. I followed the card drive; remember at times it seemed slow and discouraging. Well, you won the first phase and you'll win a contract, too. I plan to post special congratulations cards ...

When I began posting here in 2004 my husband had a similar raw deal that the overworked/underpaid Options pilots still have today. As the wife of an FO paid only 28K a year I was fed up and disgusted. It's very easy for me to empathize with frac pilots that are fighting for the fair deal that is their due. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt (literally several) from that roller coaster. It was educational.

When the NJ pilots were in negotiations I noticed that the StrongUnion group picked up more supporters with each month at the bargaining table. For the average line pilot, SU didn't start out as the savvy, well organized Union you see today. When you've been downtrodden a long time it takes awhile to learn to walk tall again. It was my privilege and pleasure to watch the NJ pilot group's transformation from apathetic individuals to committed and involved members of a Strong Union.

The Options fight feels like deja vu to me, including the pride I feel standing up for the pilots fighting for their careers, their families' welfare, fellow pilots' mutual well-being, and the advancement of the industry as a whole. Indeed, there is a lot at stake. The FltOps pilots have my full support along with my respect and admiration, too. Each example that I see here (and hear of from the pilots) tells me that the Options pilots are standing tall. Your leaders have drawn a line in the sand, pointing to the industry standard, and the Ops pilots are digging in. Hold your ground and watch. 1108 history tells us that the line will keep multiplying and getting stronger as confidence in your cause grows and pilots re-discover their self-respect.

Sincerely yours,
Netjetwife

 

[B19 Flyer]

You are going to get someone killed.

No, what gets people killed is when flights are delayed because of a "union interpretation" of what is broken instead of "industry standard" of what is broken because of "game on".

Once noted, then the flight runs late, and everybody from mechanics, fuelers, ramp personnel, customers and finally pilots rush to make up the time.

When people are rushed, schedules are changed, rest is affected, details are overlooked and accidents happen.

All because of "game on".

 

[brokeflyer]

No, what gets people killed is when flights are delayed because of a "union interpretation" of what is broken instead of "industry standard" of what is broken because of "game on".

Once noted, then the flight runs late, and everybody from mechanics, fuelers, ramp personnel, customers and finally pilots rush to make up the time.

When people are rushed, schedules are changed, rest is affected, details are overlooked and accidents happen.

All because of "game on".

ah....your the result of cousins marrying.....

stick to what you know....which is exactly squat.

 

[fischman]

No, what gets people killed is when flights are delayed because of a "union interpretation" of what is broken instead of "industry standard" of what is broken because of "game on".

Once noted, then the flight runs late, and everybody from mechanics, fuelers, ramp personnel, customers and finally pilots rush to make up the time.

When people are rushed, schedules are changed, rest is affected, details are overlooked and accidents happen.

All because of "game on".

That makes absolutely no sense at all. I can't even think of a response to someting so OUT THERE.

 

[1folinepilot]

No, what gets people killed is when flights are delayed because of a "union interpretation" of what is broken instead of "industry standard" of what is broken because of "game on".

Once noted, then the flight runs late, and everybody from mechanics, fuelers, ramp personnel, customers and finally pilots rush to make up the time.

When people are rushed, schedules are changed, rest is affected, details are overlooked and accidents happen.

All because of "game on".

Bob, What gets people killed is the "management interpretation" of what is broken and the intimidation practices you and your "team" force on all of the Flight Options employees on a daily basis to rush and cut corners to make up for and overlook your mistakes.

Once a descrepancy is noted and properly fixed right the first time, the flight will safely depart.

Bob, when are you going to pull your head out of your a$$ and realize this?

 

[jonjuan]

.Name one. Tell me about 1 airline that has been around as long as NetJets (1986) that flies to over 1800 destinations in the U.S. alone that can exceed our safety record. THERE ARE NONE.

CS and FLEX-sorry that's 2. Per 100,000 flight hours (apples-to-apples). Breiling safety report-2007.

 

[fischman]

CS and FLEX-sorry that's 2. Per 100,000 flight hours (apples-to-apples). Breiling safety report-2007.

Fair enough. :beer: