Details about the near-crash in Germany

[Lear70]

http://www.google.com/translate?u=h...et-gelandet.html&langpair=de|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8

You know, there was something about that whole sequence that just didn't make sense. Now it does.

How much you want to bet she was ab-initio with less than 1,000 hours of flight time?

I've been saying for a while that one of these days some punk kid was going to punch one in and kill a bunch of people, with inexperience being the #1 factor (behind the p*ss-poor judgment of the CA letting the F/O fly such a critical approach).

Just glad it didn't happen. Maybe someone will pay attention now to experience in the flight deck.

naaahhhh... their ticket was only $79 bucks round-trip.

 

[saabservant]

Nothing like flying with an assertive, smart, over-confident woman with little experience, until she attempts first crosswind landing or go-around.


What adventure! And the rationalizations come spewing out...read something years ago that noted a study by the Air safety foundation.. said men have slight tendency to make judgement errors, women have problems with aircraft handling. I believe it...

I love flying....

 

[waveflyer]

ab initio and experience is an even-keeled argument. Though i still think nothing replaces talent and good training in this gig. (There are plenty of 10,000 hour wonders who have been struggling through training events ever since they struggled through flight school- they aren't automatically better...)

Chick F/O??...That's the reason organizations like women in aviation and OBAP need to exist. When a white male sucks at his job- and there are plenty- they just suck. When a girl or minority is awful- it's BECAUSE they are a girl. Or it's BECAUSE they are black. Get rid of that unfairness and we can start talking about getting rid of the 'unfairness' of preferential hiring.

Maybe i just got lucky and had a black female be one of my first captains - who is still one of the best i've flown with.

 

[Nindiri]

Chick F/O??...That's the reason organizations like women in aviation and OBAP need to exist. When a white male sucks at his job- and there are plenty- they just suck. When a girl or minority is awful- it's BECAUSE they are a girl. Or it's BECAUSE they are black. Get rid of that unfairness and we can start talking about getting rid of the 'unfairness' of preferential hiring.

Nah, it's because females and minorities are more likely to be hired with little experience. Once they gain the needed experience then they are fine, but in the mean time they do stuff like this.

 

[BigMeat]

My gosh! I knew there had to be a good reason. Now we know. She needs to be worried about her cooking skills not her flying skills...

 

[Lear70]

The "Chick F/O" commend didn't have anything to do with gender bias per se, simply that I can't imagine the same thing happening with two guys in the cockpit. Re-read my post, the "chick f/o" is only in the title; the point of my post is having low-time people in airliners is a really stupid idea and leads to events such as these.

I've been around long enough to see some VERY attractive female F/O's come through with VERY low time (PCL had several of these, one of which is at DAL now and was a formal model).

I watched many times as CA's would fall all over themselves for these girls, giving them all the flying legs, not getting onto them for being off on their procedures, etc.

Not saying that's the case here but, as a guy who doesn't give a rat's if you're a guy, girl, hermaphrodite, white, black, red, purple, or plaid, in that kind of weather, the CA had an obligation to make the landing in the interest of safety and didn't.

Personally, I can't think of another reason he didn't. At 24, she can't have had a reasonable amount of flight experience to be allowed to take on that kind of landing. IMHO, it's not her fault she pooch-screwed it; she probably didn't understand she was biting off more than she could chew for her experience level.

 

[flatspin7]

Three words.... MULTI CREW LICENSE!!!

just wait until the FO has 200TT and most of that in a sim!!!!

 

[MALSR]

http://www.google.com/translate?u=h...et-gelandet.html&langpair=de|en&hl=en&ie=UTF8

You know, there was something about that whole sequence that just didn't make sense. Now it does.

How much you want to bet she was ab-initio with less than 1,000 hours of flight time?

I've been saying for a while that one of these days some punk kid was going to punch one in and kill a bunch of people, with inexperience being the #1 factor (behind the p*ss-poor judgment of the CA letting the F/O fly such a critical approach).

Just glad it didn't happen. Maybe someone will pay attention now to experience in the flight deck.

naaahhhh... their ticket was only $79 bucks round-trip.

First of all, the captain obviously exercised far worse airmanship than the FO since he was the one that let her fly the approach. So much for blaming the "inexperienced FO."

Second, you gotta love automatic German to English translation.

 

[Bringupthebird]

I watched many times as CA's would fall all over themselves for these girls, giving them all the flying legs, not getting onto them for being off on their procedures, etc.

So we need more really nasty female instructors to weed out the ones the guys want to flirt (disaster?)with. That was simple.

 

[grog_sit_reserv]

Sec. 91.3 - Responsibility and authority of the pilot in command.
(a) The pilot in command of an aircraft is directly responsible for, and is the final authority as to, the operation of that aircraft.

Anyone have a metar for that day? If it was as bad as they say on the news, then why didn't they insist on the other runway first?

 

[waveflyer]

So the problem then is #1- we're all assuming a lot. And #2- it's more likely the captain didn't exercise good judgement- than the f/o's fault.
Is a captain acting differently w/ a pretty girl, the girl's fault or the captains?

This is why i've been a proponent of not letting nerds fly airplanes. They're smart of course- but don't have the coordination to handle a cross-wind- and haven't been laid enough to be normal w/ a 'pretty f/o' that close to them(!) ...

 

[BigMeat]

First of all, the captain obviously exercised far worse airmanship than the FO since he was the one that let her fly the approach. So much for blaming the "inexperienced FO."

Second, you gotta love automatic German to English translation.

Yes he should have thought about that before commencing the approach. However once in the flare it looked like it turned ugly real fast. Maybe to fast for him to reach for that side stick. She should have stayed home that day and left the flying to the professionals. Maybe make some soup for some lucky man coming home from a hard day of work.....

 

[Lear70]

So we need more really nasty female instructors to weed out the ones the guys want to flirt (disaster?)with. That was simple.

LOL... yeah, you got it!

The metar for that time period has mostly 25-35 base winds with 35-45 kts gusts at 60 degrees off the centerline for the runway they chose (other rwy would have been a 30 deg crosswind).

The biggest gust of the day reported was 45 kts gusting to 59, for a few minutes right around that time period.

The winds were bad, certainly, but manageable, as dozens of aircraft right before and right after that approach came in and landed fine, as did the same airplane (probably under control of the CA the 2nd approach) and landed without incident.

She just shouldn't have been flying that approach.

Sucks for her; the CA made a bad call and now it's going to be a long couple of months while they crawl all over the incident with a fine-toothed comb.

 

[Whataburger]

This thread might have legs.

 

[viper548]

I think the Captain is just as much to blame as the FO for letting the FO land in those conditions.

 

[BigMeat]

I think the Captain is just as much to blame as the FO for letting the FO land in those conditions.

Im not saying you are wrong but usually when you get to that point in your career flying larger aircraft you kind know how to put in a crosswind correction and hold it. The Capt. may not have know she sucked that bad!

 

[viper548]

Im not saying you are wrong but usually when you get to that point in your career flying larger aircraft you kind know how to put in a crosswind correction and hold it. The Capt. may not have know she sucked that bad!

Very true

 

[Bringupthebird]

Remember, the inputs from the side sticks are algebraically summed, so equal opposite inputs result in no control surface deflection. Unless the CA had the presence of mind to press the sidestick takeover command button, there may not have been alot he could have done in the heat of battle.

So how does the CA respond when he askes the F/O if she feels comfortable making the landing and she (knowing the pressure on her to prove herself) says untruthfully, "Ya!"?

 

[CA1900]

She should have stayed home that day and left the flying to the professionals........

:laugh: You crack me up!


Surely you haven't forgotten you-know-who... (No, not her; the other one.)


For those who haven't heard the story, this girl I was flying with at CommutAir, who bungled an ILS up pretty badly -- she flatly refused to keep her damn eyes inside until I called the field in sight.

"But I see it!" she insisted.

"There nothing out there but clouds. Stay inside."

"But I see it!"

And so on. Grrr. Guess she was too good for SOPs.


Of course, she was all over the sky every time she picked her head up, and when we finally did pop out of the clouds at ~500 feet, we're pointing at the terminal rather than the runway.

In my headset I hear, "Oh, god! Help me help me help me help me!"

"I have the controls. Let go."

She then cried her eyes out in the cockpit as we packed up for the day. "This ruined my whole day!" she sobbed.


W. T. F. .... ?


She's now at a certain Atlanta-based low-cost carrier. Good luck with her, guys!

 

[Lear70]

The CA doesn't give the F/O the option in that situation.

Had that happen before, even with experienced F/O's. The weather is that crappy, I simply say, "I'm going to take this leg because of the weather, you can fly a couple legs tomorrow if you'd like, but the weather sucks and I'm going to fly it."

No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.