Details about the near-crash in Germany

[CA1900]

No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.

Absolutely.

In this case, with flat terrain and not particularly low weather, I didn't see any harm in letting her fly it. Guess I learned from that one!

 

[Bringupthebird]

The CA doesn't give the F/O the option in that situation.

Had that happen before, even with experienced F/O's. The weather is that crappy, I simply say, "I'm going to take this leg because of the weather, you can fly a couple legs tomorrow if you'd like, but the weather sucks and I'm going to fly it."

No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.

Fast forward to a future USAirways cockpit with a west captain and an grizzled east F/O.... The crew briefing begins with , "All pleasantries aside..."

 

[tailhookah]

It's sad... another idle go-go cage

 

[Mookie]

the only person with bad judgement on that video was the captain even trying the landing.

 

[waveflyer]

B1900- What did you learn? You have an example that seems to back up a bias. We all have those if we want.

I just warn against a broad brush- whether it's black-white, male-female, low-time-high-time-- Assuming anything makes a more dangerous flight deck. We can all suck on any given day. Your girl might be awful- but is it b/c she's a girl? Are you going to treat all women differently b/c of her?

Agree with Lear 100%. If the FO has your confidence- you may consider letting them fly after briefing the hell out of what to do if you need to go around or take over. (After all- i would rather have someone have experience doing some of these things while sitting next to me than as a new captain flying w/ a reserve FO...)

But a young inexperienced FO- that's not much of a discussion.

 

[viper548]

The CA doesn't give the F/O the option in that situation.
No discussion. It's not a democracy. That's where judgment comes in.

Exactly!

 

[tailhookah]

waveflyer wrote:

If the FO has your confidence- you may consider letting them fly after briefing the hell out of what to do if you need to go around or take over. (After all- i would rather have someone have experience doing some of these things while sitting next to me than as a new captain flying w/ a reserve FO...)

WRONG........... CA's authority man. The buck stops w/ him.

Tail

PS-waveflyer... you are the type of new aged pu$$y that would let your girl friend fly you into the ground because of your lack of cojones...

 

[CA1900]

B1900- What did you learn? You have an example that seems to back up a bias. We all have those if we want.

I learned, between that incident and a couple of others, that this particular individual wasn't up to the task. That's it. No gender bias here; just relaying a story.

My only issue is when a lower-time [insert minority here] gets put in a position that his or her experience doesn't warrant, simply to make numbers look good. I've flown with terrific women, too -- the difference is that they had experience commensurate with their position.

My argument is with affirmative action, not with women flying airplanes. (Indeed, I've flown with several who've been just terrific, including one at my current job just a few weeks ago.)

Your girl might be awful- but is it b/c she's a girl? Are you going to treat all women differently b/c of her?

No, not at all.

As I said, it's this particular individual. Just ask BigMeat; he knows exactly who I'm talking about, and has had similar experiences flying with her. My story is not the first time she's thrown up her arms and said "I can't do this" during a flight.

 

[freight dork]

I would be willing to bet that the FO on this flight had less than 1000 hours total time. In Europe most FO's are extremely unexperienced. They have "junior" FO's here (less than 1500 hours total) and you can spot them because they only have two stripes on their epaulettes. I see the two stripers regularly flying Airbus and Boeing equipment. Most airlines, even the "Legacy" airlines, hire fo's straight out of flight school. I fly with FO's all the time that have under 500 hours total time. Their SOP's are good but their handling is atrocious at times. Once the autopilot is turned off I feel like a flight instructor explaining crosswind landing technique.

 

[turn&pull]

I hate to say it kids, but I have flown with plenty of pilots from all experience levels that don't know how to land in a crosswind.

I have flown with Purdue grads fresh out of school that handle an airplane beautifully and have also flown with high time Captains that land with a side-load in even a light crosswind.

Some people got it...some don't. You know who you are.

 

[freightdogfred]

I dunno, I saw the video and to me things looked pretty good til he/she/whomever caught one helluva gust right before the mains touched. Compound that with the fact it was one of them Frenchie airplanes what don't got proper controls in it, like a control yoke and such. I'm pretty sure both panties and britches got changed afterwards however.

 

[Lear70]

Looks to me like they pulled the crab out too early. The airplane hadn't even settled into ground effect and she pulled the crab out and tried to point it down the runway.

She then started drifting, put the crab back in, right main touches down bounces up, left main touches down, right wing goes up, gust comes along, aircraft rolls left, no aileron input until after the aileron hits.

Taking the crab out too early, then not keeping the right wing down, classic FNG mistake. Not an easy landing, but CA should have made the approach and the F/O botched it.

 

[waveflyer]

******************** you tailhookah- little tough-guy on anonymous internet board... nice- You're no doubt 5'7" w/ aviation as the only way to express your "manhood".

Tell me where I've diluted captain's authority on any level.
i've taught more FO's than i can count-and always as just a line captain. the difference is that i don't need to show my balls on every leg-

News flash to the young pilot hater- Since the major airline pilots have continued to SELL OUT young pilots over and over by releasing their scope over and over- It's not in Europe-= you have FO's all over THIS country flying 73/AB replacement JETS w/ 70-90 seats, where the captain has 2500tt and the Fo <1000tt. I don't have to deal with that anymore, but you fly in that environment long and you don't wait to start teaching your FO- they'll be a captain too soon-

 

[regionaltard]

I'd have needed a ton of history with someone before letting them try something like that, the Fabulous German Babe factor notwithstanding.

Here's an interesting study that touches on how a desire for social acceptance influences decision-making in mixed-gender groups. Avalanche accidents in the backcountry are very similar to aviaition accidents with regard to causal chains, so it's not as far off-topic as it might appear to be. A bit geeky, but worth reading IMO.

 

[GuppyPuppy]

The "Chick F/O" commend didn't have anything to do with gender bias per se, simply that I can't imagine the same thing happening with two guys in the cockpit. Re-read my post, the "chick f/o" is only in the title; the point of my post is having low-time people in airliners is a really stupid idea and leads to events such as these.

I've been around long enough to see some VERY attractive female F/O's come through with VERY low time (PCL had several of these, one of which is at DAL now and was a formal model).

I watched many times as CA's would fall all over themselves for these girls, giving them all the flying legs, not getting onto them for being off on their procedures, etc.

Not saying that's the case here but, as a guy who doesn't give a rat's if you're a guy, girl, hermaphrodite, white, black, red, purple, or plaid, in that kind of weather, the CA had an obligation to make the landing in the interest of safety and didn't.

Personally, I can't think of another reason he didn't. At 24, she can't have had a reasonable amount of flight experience to be allowed to take on that kind of landing. IMHO, it's not her fault she pooch-screwed it; she probably didn't understand she was biting off more than she could chew for her experience level.

Cali, Columbia - AA
Little Rock, AR - AA
Pinnacle CRJ ferry flight
Eastern Airlines in south Florida
United DC-8, Portland, OR
Comair CRJ - Lexington, KY
Southwest 737 - Burbank, CA
Air France A340 - Toronto
Southwest 737 - Chicago, IL


All preventable. All had an all male crew.

Please educate yourself to avoid looking like an idiot.

GP

 

[PCL_128]

Unless the CA had the presence of mind to press the sidestick takeover command button, there may not have been alot he could have done in the heat of battle.

"Sidestick takeover command button?" What the hell is that? Is this an airplane or a PS3 console? Plastic French crap.

 

[DairyAir]

I have to agree with Freightdogfred on this one. The approach looked fairly decent until the gust. The pilot kicked out the crab just before touchdown and everything would have been hunkydory had it not been for that huge gust.

If I had a dollar every time a captain scared the sheiss outta me I could quit this gig. Sitting holding short of 31 at LGA during a gusty day I have seen many an expressway visual approach that looked not unlike the one in the video only these aircraft were piloted by those experienced professionals at AA, USAIR, United, Delta, Airtran and others. I think this was more bad luck and poor judgement by the captain to land on that runway than anything the FO did. Had it not been for the gust the landing probably would have been pretty good considering the conditions.

 

[chimichanga]

I learned, between that incident and a couple of others, that this particular individual wasn't up to the task. That's it. No gender bias here; just relaying a story.

Yeah, it isn't as though you havn't flown with any male pilots who $uck, right?

My only issue is when a lower-time [insert minority here] gets put in a position that his or her experience doesn't warrant, simply to make numbers look good.

I believe "Guyanan" is the word you are looking for...

 

[CA1900]

I believe "Guyanan" is the word you are looking for...

Hahahahahaha.....

Only time I've ever had to take the airplane from someone doing a visual approach on a clear blue day!

 

[On Your Six]

First, the Captain is ultimately responsbile. He did a terrible job assuming that a newbie could handle such a terrible cross-wind. He should be fired for that. This should be an eye-opener for an ab-initio airlines in Europe - experience counts.

The article/blurb is a bit unclear (with a terrible German translation). Are they blaming the girl or praising her????? I'd love to hear the cockpit voice recorder on that flight....