AirTran BOD pulls TA

[ultrarunner]

Lear70, where do you guys stand on your recall of the BoD and NC? Seems like sooner would be better than later given the July meetings that are scheduled. Would make sense to send folks up there that deliver the word of the majority.

 

[RIDETHELIGHTING]

Hey lear just sent if off. We really need you to get in there and start working for us. You are light years a head of the people running our union.

 

[Lear70]

Lear70, where do you guys stand on your recall of the BoD and NC? Seems like sooner would be better than later given the July meetings that are scheduled. Would make sense to send folks up there that deliver the word of the majority.

Recall effort begins tomorrow.

I'll have the form up on my website in the link below my posts in a few minutes. Have to upload it and a modified web page.

These cannot be emailed, they MUST be faxed. DO NOT send them tonight, there's a time deadline in it so they can go out any time after tomorrow morning. They MUST contain your original signature, date, and printed name and employee number in your own handwriting.

Copies go to the mail or fax address listed on the form so we can keep track of when we reach the required 15% to trigger a vote.

RTL, thanks again for the Kudos. I'll be happy to serve in whatever capacity they see fit to put me in. Won't, in all likelihood, be running for NPA Pres (I'm sure more qualified guys who are just as determined will step up), but would certainly be open to the NC or M&A committees.

 

[mnboyev]

Naw...let the guys that didn't listen to our group fix it...not good to start over with new folks....my humble opinion....lots of learning and too much ground to lose..? Company would like nothing better !....

Everyone was down on the NC not too long ago for being too abrasive..and a certain negotiator 'moved on'...now everyone wants blood and to start over...? WTFO ? Where was the unified front then?....

AP is a good guy and a regular pilot...no self bravado...He is learning and growing..he has done much to make our union more organized. He has improved communication leaps and bounds....be careful what you stir up....

EV

 

[B73av8r]

Naw...let the guys that didn't listen to our group fix it...not good to start over with new folks....my humble opinion....lots of learning and too much ground to lose..? Company would like nothing better !....

Everyone was down on the NC not too long ago for being too abrasive..and a certain negotiator 'moved on'...now everyone wants blood and to start over...? WTFO ? Where was the unified front then?....

AP is a good guy and a regular pilot...no self bravado...He is learning and growing..he has done much to make our union more organized. He has improved communication leaps and bounds....be careful what you stir up....

EV

mnboyve,

The COMPANY wants this contract, any contract. THEY do not want to start over, THEY want it over and done with today before the merger. If we walked in with a full new NC and said OK let's start from scratch -THEY would sheet all over themselves.

WE have the upper hand - time is on our side. I for one will wait a little longer for a GOOD contract, like I said, time is on OUR side.

 

[Lear70]

Naw...let the guys that didn't listen to our group fix it...not good to start over with new folks....my humble opinion....lots of learning and too much ground to lose..? Company would like nothing better !....

Actually, I think the company would be very UN-pleasantly surprised with who they'd end up with.

There's a LOT of VERY experienced talent in our pilot ranks right now. Besides the obvious people who have worked for the NPA previously (and very productively I might add - some of the same people that brought you the last "improved" 2nd T.A. are still around), you have a whole core of Year 2-4 F/O's who were everything from Status Reps to negotiators to union chairs and vice-chairs before they came here.

Everyone was down on the NC not too long ago for being too abrasive..and a certain negotiator 'moved on'...now everyone wants blood and to start over...? WTFO ? Where was the unified front then?....

Yes, we should have had a unified front then, but we didn't.

Now everyone wants blood because THIS NC brought us absolute CRAP. Can you blame them?

AP is a good guy and a regular pilot...no self bravado...He is learning and growing..he has done much to make our union more organized. He has improved communication leaps and bounds....be careful what you stir up....

EV

Yes, he's been an excellent ADMINISTRATOR; that's not what we need now. We need a LEADER who will push, and push hard to get what we need and deserve without pushing TOO much and getting something that the company can't financially handle long-term (which would be a LONG way from where we are now).

Rest assured, whoever goes into office isn't going to have as steep of a learning curve as you might imagine. More than likely the company would end up with not only an EXPERIENCED group of people across the table, but a very dedicated and aggressive group as well.

 

[CitationLover]

good luck guys

 

[j41driver]

Just sent mine in.

Lear - Thank you very much for the work you've done thus far...it is greatly appreciated.

 

[j41driver]

Sorry EV...just don't trust those guys to get the job done. They are too far out of touch with the group. Time to move on.

 

[FlyWolf]

I also want to wish you guys good luck, pulling a TA before a vote is no easy task, someone is paying attention to the pilot group.

 

[Lear70]

I also want to wish you guys good luck, pulling a TA before a vote is no easy task, someone is paying attention to the pilot group.

Yes, they are, although it was hard to ignore. At the "info sessions" and "road shows", it was obvious how many people were angry about it. They had maybe 1 person out of every 10 who was even "neutral", and certainly only a handful of the entire pilot group that were happy about it.

Every conference call was full of militant, angry pilots and the NPA was always on the defensive, using the word "concession" and "industry standard" together a LOT.

I personally believe it a disservice to the pilot group to pull something that was obviously going to bomb so dramatically. A large "NO" vote would have been hailed as a "WIN" by the pilot group, and would have been usable as a large bargaining chip when we return to the table. The company likely realizes that, doesn't want us to have that kind of leverage, and agreed to go back to the NMB.

Unfortunately, it's obvious from people who go to the road show that AP and the NC *still* think this is a good deal. Just can't trust them to go back up and get us something worth having if they believe in something that the VAST majority of the pilot group thinks is such a loser.

It'll be a very short transition period, likely bringing back NPA members who have been heavily involved in the NPA or other union leadership positions previously, getting a new opener together, and going back to the table with the backing of a determined pilot group and an aggressive NC.

I still say this has been the single best thing to unify the pilot group that could have happened, although I no longer believe the NPA engineered it. It got people thinking about what they really wanted, how profitable the company has been and is projected to be, and how little they really are interested in giving up. You can't buy that level of engagement in your membership.

 

[Citrusflyer]

Just out of curiosity, where were all the "recall" guys during the last election? While that election was a big turn-out in relation to the previous ones, only 700 of the eligible pilots voted (about 60%). And only two guys ran for President. With an apathetic showing like that its no wonder the company's opinion of the union is so low. They thought they could steam-roll the pilot group and now know they cannot.

However, I am of the opinion that we need to give AP a chance for redemption. He is doing the right thing in pulling the TA. He stated publicly (in the conference call last night) that if he does not get overwhelming support in a “yes” vote he will have failed the pilots with this new TA. And I take him at his word on that. While I have no faith in SH or the entire NC, I think we should see what AP is willing to do, and how hard he is willing to fight.

When the last election took place I was an advocate that no matter who you voted for, you had to vote. Unfortunately, many chose to let a few decide the fate of us all. And the result is what we have today. Now, you guys are trying to change captains in the middle of voyage. Yes, there are many qualified folks out there who could do the job better, but they were not willing to step up to the plate a few months ago, and now they want to be the “white knight”? No thanks. Had we had more participation, and more candidates, then I could support a recall of AP. However, considering what actually took place, we made our bed and now we have to lie in it (so to speak).

From where I sit the recall guys want to throw the union in chaos; then try to re-negotiate a TA and possible merger. What happens if the new guys don’t do it right? Do we recall them and start over a third time?

We, the pilots, bear some responsibility in all of this. We elected AP and the rest of the BoD. IMHO we should give AP the support he needs, let him do the job he was elected to do, then decide on the recall if he remains out of touch.



Sorry for the rant. Cheers.

 

[GunSlinger]

I just faxed the recall petition to the NPA.

A time for change is definitely at hand!

 

[Lear70]

No, the rant is cool... deliberating ideas is part of what this message board was originally intended for.

I thought like you did until Allen and the BOD pulled this without stating their new goals in going back to mediation. Sorry, but I just know better than to trust someone who has brought me something so woefully inadequate once... part of that "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..." kind of thinking.

I even told him that and have it direct from the source that other senior CA's told him the same thing. "If you're going to let it go to vote, pull the "recommend" and let it die HARD. If you're going to pull it, pull it NOW, tell the membership WHY you're pulling it and EXACTLY what you're going to change and that you will accept nothing less."

If he had done that, I wouldn't support the recall. He hasn't. Therefore I feel I have no choice, not knowing that they'll go to bat to reverse all those concessionary things I posted on the last page.

As to why no one else ran? I don't know,,, although I remember posting that if there was ANY other candidate who was interested to PLEASE let me know, as I didn't like what AP was doing even THEN. I bet you there's more than a 60% turnout at THIS election/recall/election. Hopefully the NMB sessions won't move very quickly and we'll be able to get this done before another "tweaked" T.A. comes out.

AP has until the day of voting to change his tune to what the Membership wants. If he does, I predict he'll stay in office; if he doesn't, I predict he's gone.

 

[FIREMAN]

If AP sends SH back, then he needs to be recalled. It must be clear that there is no support for SH. AP has been asked over and over to replace SH, but refuses to. This is one big reason he has had liitle support. I can not suport a NC I do not belive in. When SH is repalaced then I will put bag tags and stickers on my bags.

 

[Pilot Knob]

I wanted this thing to go down hard. And now I'm not going to get the satisfaction to vote no. They knew this thing was a POS when they brought it to us, and had the b$#lls to try and tell us it was a good deal. How do they keep a straight face? All of that time I spent on the phone with Wilson polling(and all of the other participants) appears to have been a complete waste of time! "we need to sign off on this TA so we can go forward with the merger" AP. NO WE DON'T! We need to get a contract that is fair to the pilot group and has very tight scope and merger protection. 4.5 hour average day, ac movement, core value credit(nice buzz word) mdo reserve lines, proposed scope language,etc. are all deal breakers for me.

 

[Citrusflyer]

No, the rant is cool... deliberating ideas is part of what this message board was originally intended for.

I thought like you did until Allen and the BOD pulled this without stating their new goals in going back to mediation. Sorry, but I just know better than to trust someone who has brought me something so woefully inadequate once... part of that "fool me once, shame on you, fool me twice..." kind of thinking.

I even told him that and have it direct from the source that other senior CA's told him the same thing. "If you're going to let it go to vote, pull the "recommend" and let it die HARD. If you're going to pull it, pull it NOW, tell the membership WHY you're pulling it and EXACTLY what you're going to change and that you will accept nothing less."

Good points. But let me ask you this. By the same logic should we not have a candidate(s) in mind, who will "tell the membership WHY their pulling it (the TA) and EXACTLY what (the will do) to change and (if they) will accept nothing less" PRIOR to recalling AP and the BoD?

If we don't have a savior on deck, then what exactly will we get in return for yanking these guys out?

 

[Lear70]

Good points. But let me ask you this. By the same logic should we not have a candidate(s) in mind, who will "tell the membership WHY their pulling it (the TA) and EXACTLY what (the will do) to change and (if they) will accept nothing less" PRIOR to recalling AP and the BoD?

If we don't have a savior on deck, then what exactly will we get in return for yanking these guys out?

Well, first, we're not removing the entire BoD. We're removing AP and the Negotiating Committee ONLY. It's not good to have a headless NPA and there will be enough experience left to run the daily operations while the new head and the NC spool up.

Secondly, you're exactly right. I was mentioning that the other day when people were starting to clamor more loudly for recall, saying "Who is going to take his place?"

Several people have said BD, several people have said one of the other BoD members (although I fail to see how that's a good plan when they still unanimously support this lovely document for download), I honestly don't know what the answer is, and I've been asking that very question on the underground site and so far it's crickets...

I do, however, know that there is ZERO trust, and therefore zero support for AP and the NC, and we can't go on fighting with no trust or support from the pilot group. The only way to fix that is to replace them with someone the pilots can trust again.

 

[Ace McCoy]

When I heard that the BOD pulled the TA I couldn't help but feel sorry for RM. He was so excited! about this TA. He must be very sad today.

Filling out my petition now. Should I send it in right away for maximum effect or go to work and get more signatures? Also, make 2 copies and send one to Craig and fax one to npa and mail or just fax only?

Thanks.

 

[The Victors]

It's good to finally see a pilot group stand up and stay FU..K OFF to a POS contract offer from mgmt. To bad those frontier losers didn't do the same and continue to try and lower the bar. Good for you airtran guys/gals!!! Keep up the fight

 

[EMBATP]

recall

well guys i too listened to the conference call and i did not hear one thing that impressed me or made me feel that we are going to get anything much better than whats on the table now.....AP did not even apologize for bringing this turd out or even have any suggestion on how to make it better...he listened to the callers but did not "hear" them...people are basically telling him what this pilot group will not stand for and he does not seem to get it....he is not only out of touch with the pilot group but the industry as well...

he does not realize that yes we want a raise etc. but are not willing to give up things like a 13 hour day 4.5 average day, scope etc. to get it....what was he thinking?

as for the recall...i dont know who to put in there...i am sure we have a lot of talent that will step forward... i have no experience but would be wiling to help...but we need to recall the whole BOD and NC on this one...cant trust any of those guys anymore...they all supported this, so how can they prove they will bring anything better?

oh and dont let SH negotiate anything ever again....

 

[mnboyev]

I say let em meet in July... see what happens... if they continue to FU.. well.. then I guess they'll get wacked and start over.... sad stuff men.. I wont ask for a recall yet.. make em fix it. Like Lear said.... crickets when they question is raised 'who will step up'?

Havent seen any bag tags at work... I guess everyone is afraid of getting removed from their trip.. ? Did everyone email the SPC chair....

Just stirring the pot... Start writing your 'vote for me' quips... make sure to get a good picture of yourself standing firm focused and whatever ... LOL...
Be sure to throw them around the crew lounge and plaster them on our sh1t house walls..... Who will be the next poster child of the NPA? Please..

 

[Lowrider717]

We are UNITED in 1 thing, this TA Sucks. Lets keep it simple. Give democracy a chance and not give the Company what it wants, more division.

Stay focused.

I'm not happy about not getting to Vote on this Crappy TA, but at least WE were heard. We were heard, not fully but we were heard. That's about all I can find positive in this deal.

 

[Lear70]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

We have no way to make our voices heard if our own elected reps won't listen. They are entrenched in their belief that this T.A. is worth ratifying. Therefore, sending them back again isn't going to do us any good unless they agree to do the will of the group.

 

[Citrusflyer]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

We have no way to make our voices heard if our own elected reps won't listen. They are entrenched in their belief that this T.A. is worth ratifying. Therefore, sending them back again isn't going to do us any good unless they agree to do the will of the group.

As far as insanity goes, we have to do this once first. For better, or worse, we didn't get to vote on this. We did, however, get to see the equivelant of a "preview" and the ctirics were not kind. Now, it's up to the makers to rectify the situation. They have taken the unusual step of pulling the TA. Let's see where this goes. If they see fit to tie it up with a band-aid then so be it....vote it down and the BoD out!

If not, and they pull it together, and get a good deal out of it then we win. Unless you have other motives let these guys do the job that the plurality elected them to do.

Next time maybe, just maybe, the pilot group will wake up and have full participation in an election.

 

[Lowrider717]

"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, and expecting different results."

We have no way to make our voices heard if our own elected reps won't listen. They are entrenched in their belief that this T.A. is worth ratifying. Therefore, sending them back again isn't going to do us any good unless they agree to do the will of the group.

I agree, but the BoD committed (for whatever reason) to endorsing this pig, they have an obligation to give it its best shot(I'm mostly playing devils advocate here) and not to do so would be in "bad faith". Your turn.

 

[Lowrider717]

Next time maybe, just maybe, the pilot group will wake up and have full participation in an election.

I disagree with the tack the BoD has taken in "bashing" the Pilot Group and laying the blame on US for this sucky TA, because we haven't worn our Pins or displayed our bag tags enough. That is poor form friend, and it needs to stop. Continuing will only drive more to the petition.

 

[BagelBomber]

All the pilots on property who bought into the company propaganda on how bad our previous NC Chairman was, this is what you get for being retarded. If Mike B. was at the table, this PoS would not have seen the light of day. This TA is what you get in return for the company deciding who negotiates against them. They whined and cried how big bad Mike was the reason nothing was happening and some of our pilots believed it. It was masterfully executed by the company and they just needed Allen to lay down on it. If we were able to talk MB into coming back to the table and pair him with Lear70 and Brad D. - that would be our Dream Team and just what we need right now. At the very least, we would get a TA we could actually vote on. Just my opinion.

 

[instructordude]

All the pilots on property who bought into the company propaganda on how bad our previous NC Chairman was, this is what you get for being retarded. If Mike B. was at the table, this PoS would not have seen the light of day. This TA is what you get in return for the company deciding who negotiates against them. They whined and cried how big bad Mike was the reason nothing was happening and some of our pilots believed it. It was masterfully executed by the company and they just needed Allen to lay down on it. If we were able to talk MB into coming back to the table and pair him with Lear70 and Brad D. - that would be our Dream Team and just what we need right now. At the very least, we would get a TA we could actually vote on. Just my opinion.

Don't forget Ty. I'm pretty sure managment would cave in if they knew he was part of the negotiating team. Sh!t what am I saying team for, Ty could do it on his own and management would be crappin their diapers seeing him across the table.

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty could do it on his own and management would be crappin their diapers seeing him across the table.

Hmmm . . . . . it would be entertaining, of that you could be certain. SK would be reduced to pounding on the table with his shoe, like Kruschev.



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