Pilot forced to retire--Boo hoo! Freaking baby!

[B737Dvr]

You'd be surprised at the things captains can't do these days. FO's go crying to the chief pilot who backs them up 100% in fear of any lawsuit. The regionals have destroyed the career along with the afirmative action hiring practices of the majors. This career has become a joke, and it happened on the "old guys" watch.

Yes, great point at what some old guys cant do! I've seen an old 59.5year old guy shut off an irs on the ground because he couldnt get the FMS to delete an entry, instead of knowing the box better! we took a 10 min penalty on that day! lol.....some old guys are much worse, and yes they should retire and defer to those who can reprogram much faster and accurately, but i believe these to be minorities and not the majority (since they retired now).

I am on the fence about whether or not the regionals destroyed this career, affirmative action has helped others who would have never broken the "good old boy club" and it has also given opportunities to people who dont deserve even welfare!.....

i will disagree that it happened on the old guys watch though. You cant from the cockpit, combate the likes of an ornstein, who will sell his mother to the devil to expand mesa's reach even more! dont even get me started on him!

 

[Bako Cap]

Hey Oakum,

The regionals wouldn't be a problem if the same pilots who voted away scope wouldn't now want to fly another 5 years.

Yeah, we should listen to pilots who have helped drive this industry into the ground and support the age 65 issue.

 

[svcta]

737.....I appreciate you taking the time to address my point. A quick aside: I grew up with ATARI 2600 and DOS. Pong never really helped me with FMS and I have never owned a PS anything. And I completely agree that experience cannot be bought and that there are a lot of people who do not realize that. All of that is beside the point.

But for these guys to get their butts up on their shoulders about "age discrminination" when they knew for the 30 years you mentioned that 60 was it doesn't make sense. NOONE moved the goalposts on them. And almost(all, I think) every article or quote I see from those that get motivated enough to write involve the statement about being better than everyone below them. "Stick and rudder" skills, you say? How many times did I suggest that the 50 year-old next to me kill the automation and just do it "the old fashion way"? More than a few.

You've agreed that blanket statements cannot be made, and that they have been made, indeed. I will not allow my example up there to serve as an indicator of the level of awareness and skill of everyone older than me. But the whole 121 environment is structured around the weakest link. If there are just a very few folks out there that have no biz. flying past 60 then they will ruin it for the whole lot. Is the collective ego of the aging pilot group worth allowing a few "shaky old timers" to keep working?

Addition: Let me pre-emptively assert that AME's will not catch any stragglers unless something changes about the medical process.

 

[Snapshot]

Every single one of the guys fighting for the change got to where they are becuase the fine gentlemen before them had the grace to step aside with some dignity when their time came. Unlike what many seem to believe, It had nothing to do with them somehow being more "deserving and worthy" when they were 25-30 than the current crop of pilots.

This is greed by both sides.

Side A: having reaped the benefits of the rule want to change it so that they can reap even more at the expense of the other side.
Side B: simply wants the same opportunity as those that went before them.
There is only greed on ONE side of this. The other side is only fighting for what is true and right.


That being said. I have to agree...........

If you're looking for what's "true and right", you've gotten into the wrong business. TC

 

[SIG600]

Just out of curiosity, does anyone here even know the true origins of the Age 60 rule? It had more to do with the airlines and the pensions than safety.

Side B: simply wants the same opportunity as those that went before them.
There is only greed on ONE side of this. The other side is only fighting for what is true and right.

Not quite sure how you can defend this. Guys that have been working for 20-30 years at an airline with the promise of a pension and a cozy retirement are suddenly screwed out of that, and they desire to try and work a little more INSTEAD of retire, and you call it greed?

 

[filejw]

Had a guy on the J/S with an interesting observation. He said the FO's at the the time (196X) of the Age 60 rule had a windfall and now the guys turning 60 will get a windfall if they want to stay.Most the guys I know approaching 60 want the rule change not so the can stay at xxx air but to have the ability to do contract work if they wish.A little double dipping so to speak.

 

[B737Dvr]

economics

i believe that the origins of the age 60 rule came to be from the predecesors of the faa, i forget what they were. cr smith when he ran american i heard fired a bunch of senior guys, who got their jobs back, but he prompted the then aviation regulators of the day to consider a max age for pilots (with age being the front) to retire them and really save on top wage levels.

any body on here can explain better? furthermore, i dont see how the age 60 rule hurts younger guys today except to delay their upgrade and ascent on the seniority list. it also delays retirement to age 65 and you now have 5 more years to rule the world atop the ups and swa payscales. people today are hard pressed to get to a legacy or good job till later on in age, so this is just more time to make it....you know?

just my thoughts.....

 

[Amish RakeFight]

any body on here can explain better? furthermore, i dont see how the age 60 rule hurts younger guys today except to delay their upgrade and ascent on the seniority list. it also delays retirement to age 65 and you now have 5 more years to rule the world atop the ups and swa payscales. people today are hard pressed to get to a legacy or good job till later on in age, so this is just more time to make it....you know?

just my thoughts.....

Isn't that hurt enough when it translates into a decrease in earning potential over a career?

 

[Shrek]

Anybody who would put all their retirement eggs in one basket (A and B Fund) at ANY time before or after 9/11 is retarded. That being said - never live beyond your means no matter WHAT your seniority or wage.

Just seems that some want a do-over since they did not head the above warnings.

Sorry but that is life and they should get out of the left seat and readjust their expectations of retirement (Accord instead of BMW)

BUT
That being said......the FAA will change the rule anyways and we lil know-it-all RJ punks will have to adjust.

But that is ok because I KNOW life isn't fair and I seek NO second chance at the money till..

 

[krautfed]

I'm not an airline pilot, but I view the entire airline pilot community as whiners in general, not just old vs young or regional vs major or etc. I come from a professional sports back ground... you think you pilots have it bad!

Also, out of shear coincidence, I was actually on Mr. Wolfe's Retirement Flight. This flight was wonderful from the departure at LAS to the terminal gate greeting in CLT. It was a great experience to be a part of someones retirement flight. My signature and congrats are on the picture and I snapped quite a few pics in the air on my cell phone from a "working class"s seat. We experienced turbulence over NM/TX/OK and had to change altitudes several times but nothing out of the ordinary. If anyone knows Mr. or Mrs. Wolfe, have him contact me if he would like some pictures of the flight. Once again, congrats and good luck with the future Mr. Wolfe.

-Joe
Seat 10A - US Airways Flight 700 - LAS to CLT

PS - What goes on in Vegas, stays in Vegas.

 

[Snapshot]

Anybody who would put all their retirement eggs in one basket (A and B Fund) at ANY time before or after 9/11 is retarded.......

I KNOW life isn't fair and I seek NO second chance at the money till..

AMEN.

Not quite sure how you can defend this. Guys that have been working for 20-30 years at an airline with the promise of a pension and a cozy retirement are suddenly screwed out of that, and they desire to try and work a little more INSTEAD of retire, and you call it greed?

It is absolutely criminal what happened to the pensions. Nobody is saying any different. However, their retirements were stolen from them by MANAGEMENT. Are you suggesting is it somehow justified for them to replace it by stealing from ME?

(p.s. Sig....If my guess is correct, you've proabably heard about the importance of "Living prudently within your means")

 

[ultrarunner]

i believe that the origins of the age 60 rule came to be from the predecesors of the faa, i forget what they were. cr smith when he ran american

You can Google "history of the age-60 rule" and get all kinds of references...

...but you're pretty close...

CR Smith, near the end of his tenure, didn't want to stick the old-timers that started out in DC-3's and such, strapping on 707's that AA was going to start operating in the 60's.

Got the CAB to go along with him.

But take a good read, it's pretty interesting stuff.

 

[hoover]

Age 60 should be repealed because it is bad law. NO ONE should be forced to give up his chosedn profession because of an arbitrary date on a calendar.

 

[Esprit]

Krautfed,

So would it be fair for me as an airline pilot to view all professional sports players as overpaid prima donnas? Quite a broad brush you got there.

Shrek,

Excellent post, exactly what I was thinking.

Esprit

 

[krautfed]

Krautfed,

So would it be fair for me as an airline pilot to view all professional sports players as overpaid prima donnas? Quite a broad brush you got there.

Yep, perfectly fair. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and there is always greener grass, more to the story, etc, etc. This type of stereotyping happens a lot in professions where the low man makes <$20K /yr and the high man makes >$200K /yr... just like pilots and athletes. You should hear my opinions on Engineering, which is where I'm at now career wise!

-Joe

 

[tomgoodman]

Management had help

It is absolutely criminal what happened to the pensions. Nobody is saying any different. However, their retirements were stolen from them by MANAGEMENT. Are you suggesting is it somehow justified for them to replace it by stealing from ME?

Your point is valid, provided that you had nothing to do with dumping the pensions. At some carriers, however, the union VOTED to allow a pension-dump (retirees could not vote). In these cases, the reaction of the older pilots, and any resulting career stagnation, was completely predictable.

 

[Snapshot]

Who voted to kill their own pensions?

 

[27 driver]

This argument will go on forever. From the old guy trying to eek out a few more years to the new guys facing five years of stagnation. The fact is that the rule is changing. I am not for the rule. It will make me wait five more years. Can I change it? No I can not. Everybody needs to just deal with it. This career is not what it used to be. All these old guys got to reap the benefits of huge paychecks that most of us young guys will never see. I do agree that 5 extra years will not fix 40 years of over indulging, divorces, and living above their means. Us young guys just have to deal with it. It has been said before on this thread, if you don't like it, don't let the door hit you where the good lord split you. We all need to stop bitching and just work together.

 

[ultrarunner]

Well said 27...it's just the way it is. Some folks hold on pretty tight to things out of their control. And in the end, that death-grip finally loosens up.

 

[Snapshot]

From the FAA website:

Age 60 Rule Frequently Asked Questions

February 2,2007

When will the FAA issue a final rule and how long will the transition period take? Why can't the FAA change the rule now?
The Administrative Procedures Act requires a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) to be issued before any final action is taken. The FAA plans to have an NPRM out by the end of calendar year 2007. The public, industry, and individual pilots will then have the opportunity to comment. This is an 18-month, 2-year, or possibly longer process, depending on the amount and complexity of the comments. A final rule will then be published that will dictate a transition period that will be determined through this rulemaking process.

For Christ's sake, not even two weeks into a process that could take a couple of years and y'all are shrugging your shoulders and throwing in the towel? Do you quit flying when an engine catches on fire?

Write some letters to the people involved. Get involved in the above mentioned review process. Go to a roadshow and let Prater know you expect him to read the results of the expensive polling they did and represent his membership.

Wake up people. This is going to personally cost you thousands and thousands of dollars and force you to Work during your golden years instead of enjoying yourself. Five extra YEARS is a LONG time. Statistically, that means going to work for 1/4 of your remaining LIFE.