Colgan new aircrafts

[Lear70]

Yup, the Key Word is Pinnacle Airlines...Not Pinnacle Airlines CORP!!! There is a HUGE difference. If you guys don't know the difference, no wonder your management is so easily able to screw you at every turn.

I didn't write your scope, I just know how it is being interpreted by management and how it will be by any court, if you bring a lawsuit. I'm sure ALPA knows it too. Again, we didn't write it, from what you say, you did.

Oh, so now you're a legal expert, too.

Wow...

Here's another hint: the contract doesn't say Pinnacle Airlines, Inc, nor does it say Pinnacle Airlines Corp. It just says Pinnacle Airlines. Which COULD be interpreted TO INCLUDE BOTH.

Especially since the holding company (Pinnacle Airlines Corp) was formed BY Pinnacle Airlines AFTER the contract was written. Making Pinnacle Airlines CORP a "successor".

Nice try at your "interpretation"; I can punch holes in it all day long and I'm not an attorney. Imagine what the ALPA attorneys who get paid to do this for a living can come up with.

I have said time and time again that I wish nothing bad for either pilot group and what we want is what you want...to keep the companies separate, us operating Turboprops, you the jets. To say or imply that I am attacking or wishing anything negative on 9E pilots just tells me that you haven't actually read my posts very carefully.

That's interesting, since every PCL pilot who comes across these threads seems to hear the same thing I am.

To say or imply that you AREN'T wishing anything negative for PCL pilots just tells me you're either stupid (unlikely), naive (possibly), or choosing to turn a blind eye to the realities of what happens when management deliberately tries to find a loophole to screw you out of something you bargained for in good faith (most likely).

ME ME ME is about all that's coming out of your mouth. As long as it's good for you, you have no problem with it. Problem is, that's bad for the PCL pilots.

If you can't see this will be dangled as a carrot for earlier contract settlement (in the company's favor) at PCL, then you need to learn to think in broader scope.

I just want you all to be realistic about where you stand and stop telling us what to YOU think WE should do. I think most Colgan pilots don't feel a bit of remorse about flying Q400s. That is and always was OUR flying, period.

At least ONE of you understands that what goes around comes around (and I don't hear a bunch of guys standing up behind you yelling the same thing).

He has the voice of reason and is taking a "let's just hang out and see what happens" stance rather than a "that flying is OURS!" stance. Very respectable.

 

[IslandDriver]

You are all right at 9E...a union drive has begun at CJC. But I hear it is not ALPA. The feeling is that we may need protection from the 9E pilots and ALPA...so some are pushing for Teamsters.

Management at Colgan is not going to do anything to stop a union drive. Some who have talked personally with the Colgan's have been told that they imagined a union drive might come out after the sale. Mary F. said right in the first conference call that it would be up to us.

I say stop all the BSing and send us a ballot and get it over with and see what happens.

But as vchaz said the prop flying at CO has been earned by CJC pilots...not 9E pilots.

 

[Smarta$$]

Question? Are those 9E guys complaining on this web board the same guys that walked through DTW and MSP with a smile on their face as they replace Mesaba's flying with their fancy new CRJ's. Are these also the same 9e guys that while Mesaba pilots were fighting for their jobs just a few months ago couldn't get anything in writting from the 9E ALPA union that they would not fly struck work...even the NWA pilots publicly came out in support for Mesaba. Are these the same 9E guys that wouldn't take a Mesaba pilot with the same deal Mesaba gave 9E pilots back in the late 90's...yes you know what I'm talking about.
Now your whinning and crying because you feel your getting screwed by Colgan pilots. TOO BAD you've been doing it for years to the Mesaba Pilots now you get to enjoy yours.
Also how do you think NWA will respond to this. NWA has always wanted 100% control of their feed. Do you think your still getting those 17 CRJ with no pilot contract and now this.
I would be very concerned with how NWA responds to this...especially since they now own 100% of Mesaba and Compass will get off the ground.

Perhaps the pilots of 9E will see first hand what it's like too how bad it really can get.

Sorry guys but you deserve it.

Um, very wrong on many accounts. Tool.

 

[Ridgeback]

Are YOU, a Colgan pilot, ALSO trying to screw Pinnacle pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by justifying your own good fortune.


It is ANYTHING that is purchased and operated by Pinnacle Airlines, its subsidiaries, or its successors.

CAREFUL I believe those 140 some CRJs are OWNED by Northwest airlines flown on routes OWNED by Northwest airlines.

Are YOU, a 9E pilot, ALSO trying to screw Northwest pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by jusifying your own good fortune.

Now wait I know that your at Airtra, but please think about what you are saying. Your acusing this guy of the same thing you were happy to be part of at 9E.

 

[PCL_128]

CAREFUL I believe those 140 some CRJs are OWNED by Northwest airlines flown on routes OWNED by Northwest airlines.

Are YOU, a 9E pilot, ALSO trying to screw Northwest pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by jusifying your own good fortune.

The NWA pilots willfully gave up their scope protections on aircraft with less than 55-seats a very long time ago.

 

[Lear70]

CAREFUL I believe those 140 some CRJs are OWNED by Northwest airlines flown on routes OWNED by Northwest airlines.

Are YOU, a 9E pilot, ALSO trying to screw Northwest pilots? Sounds like you're bordering on it by jusifying your own good fortune.

Now wait I know that your at Airtran, but please think about what you are saying. Your acusing this guy of the same thing you were happy to be part of at 9E.

Nope. Not quite the same scenario.

Northwest pilots GAVE UP their scope and didn't give a rat's a*s about the CRJ's UNTIL their pilots started getting furloughed in DROVES.

Pinnacle also furloughed some (me included), then brought us back and started add a bunch more CRJ's.

Some NWA pilots were mad. Understandably so, but HERE is where the story differs:

They had no one to be mad at but THEMSELVES. They had ALREADY GIVEN UP THIS FLYING OF THEIR OWN ACCORD knowing FULL well we were getting them and would be flying them for Northwest.

They only wanted it BACK when it benefited them.

Believe it or not, I was one of the guys that said, "Fine, I'll go back to Lear charter or Supplemental 121 Boeing freight; I'll take a voluntary furlough, in exchange for a FULL flow-through agreement with mainline Northwest. Those guys can have these jets, as long as I get a mainline seniority number".

Funny how they wouldn't even BEGIN to discuss a REASONABLE and EQUITABLE arrangement that benefits BOTH sides.

Again, you post that of which you know naught of.

 

[gooseman13]

Just to play devil's advocate here...
The phrase is "It is ANYTHING that is purchased and operated by Pinnacle Airlines, its subsidiaries, or its successors."
Someone mentioned that the contract predates Pinnacle Corp, so the originial "Pinnacle Airlines" is Pinnacle, Inc. Colgan is obviously not a "subsidiary" of Pinnacle, Inc, so the only language remaining in the scope is "successors," which some people have said should include Pinnacle, Corp. But the definition of successor is "a thing or person that immediately replaces something or someone." But Pinnacle, Inc still exists...thus Pinnacle Corp has not replaced it.
Thats not to say its definitely interpreted in this way...but there's clearly a chance it could be.

 

[Prop2Jet]

1.3 you just SUCK.

 

[ToiletDuck]

Don't vent your frustration over your own impotence and inability to get a foothold in negotiations over YOUR contracts by trying to win a fight over here. WE will take care of ourselves.

So you're saying you stood up and shouted for non-union and lowest paying wages? Sign me up for Colgan!!!

 

[ToiletDuck]

I would fly pcl's rj's for half of what the pcl pilots get paid cause i love jets!!!

Then you're a tool and everything that's wrong with the industry. If jets were so imporatant you should have wait just a little longer rather than applying as soon as you met the lowest minimums out there.

 

[better up here]

I love the ATL.

 

[Flyer1015]

I would fly pcl's rj's for half of what the pcl pilots get paid cause i love jets!!!

OMG LOL!!!



<---------- I'm sure PT the Clown LOVES you!

 

[Lear70]

Just to play devil's advocate here...
The phrase is "It is ANYTHING that is purchased and operated by Pinnacle Airlines, its subsidiaries, or its successors."
Someone mentioned that the contract predates Pinnacle Corp, so the originial "Pinnacle Airlines" is Pinnacle, Inc. Colgan is obviously not a "subsidiary" of Pinnacle, Inc, so the only language remaining in the scope is "successors," which some people have said should include Pinnacle, Corp. But the definition of successor is "a thing or person that immediately replaces something or someone." But Pinnacle, Inc still exists...thus Pinnacle Corp has not replaced it.
Thats not to say its definitely interpreted in this way...but there's clearly a chance it could be.

Oh I'm absolutely certain that's a similar tactic to what PT and NT (labor attorney he retains on full-time basis) are going to say.

Everything is about intent. It was intended to be binding on the company no matter what they did.

Unfortunately, we've already seen at MSA what can happen with a holding company. That's probably what gave Nonconnah the idea to begin with (they don't really get original ideas, they just skew some old ones, including old Eastern Airline tactics from their ex-EAL pilots on middle-management payroll).

I don't know how labor-friendly VA is, but they'll definitely have to take it to court somewhere. I hope it's Nashville, would love to show my support and come testify again against PCL management.

 

[redflyer65]

Guys, As much as you don't want to admit it, the scope is pretty solid. There is no way that it could have been written better in '99. It names ANY successor, not PCL holding or the ABC company. It says ANY. Once you agree to the successor clause then all flying done by the successor should be done by the PCL pilot group.

In no way is this meant as a slam toward the Colgan guys. You didn't ask for any of this, it's just the way the contract was written way back in 1999. PCL knows they are on thin ice with this but decided to roll the dice anyway.

Hey Lear, have you also thought about the fact that Phil actually came to the MEC and ASKED for scope relief about a year before all this? Do you think he knew then that the scope was pretty good? It's really a low risk gamble for him. The only think he might be out is attorney fees for the defense, but they could fold the hand at any time.

 

[suupah]

Guys, As much as you don't want to admit it, the scope is pretty solid. There is no way that it could have been written better in '99. It names ANY successor, not PCL holding or the ABC company. It says ANY. Once you agree to the successor clause then all flying done by the successor should be done by the PCL pilot group.

In no way is this meant as a slam toward the Colgan guys. You didn't ask for any of this, it's just the way the contract was written way back in 1999. PCL knows they are on thin ice with this but decided to roll the dice anyway.

Hey Lear, have you also thought about the fact that Phil actually came to the MEC and ASKED for scope relief about a year before all this? Do you think he knew then that the scope was pretty good? It's really a low risk gamble for him. The only think he might be out is attorney fees for the defense, but they could fold the hand at any time.

If what you say is true, what is phil's tactic here? Is it to get the planes on property before he loses the court battle? All the time knowing that the groups would have to merge eventually? Would he have been able to get the planes with just you guys since you are still in contract negotiations?

How quickly would a federal court case be decided?