violation

[Almerick07]

So I was cruising around under the PHX class B hopping from airport to airport and when I return to my airport ground tells me to call this number for a possible pilot deviation. Im dumbfounded and dont have a clue as to what I did....so I call. They asked if I was aware that I had busted the class B north of PHX, I said no I was not aware and was not sure how I had done it since I stayed far east in a VFR transition route and kept my altitude low. Anyways we came to the conclusion that he was not sure if it was me or not and said he was not going to pursue this any further and that it happens all the time. Should I fill out a NASA report? It was impossible that it was me but they somehow got my tail number out of the ordeal....suggestions advice?

 

[AC560]

Should I fill out a NASA report?

I would, remember under administrative law you are guilty until proven innocent.

 

[The_Russian]

So I was cruising around under the PHX class B hopping from airport to airport and when I return to my airport ground tells me to call this number for a possible pilot deviation. Im dumbfounded and dont have a clue as to what I did....so I call. They asked if I was aware that I had busted the class B north of PHX, I said no I was not aware and was not sure how I had done it since I stayed far east in a VFR transition route and kept my altitude low. Anyways we came to the conclusion that he was not sure if it was me or not and said he was not going to pursue this any further and that it happens all the time. Should I fill out a NASA report? It was impossible that it was me but they somehow got my tail number out of the ordeal....suggestions advice?

Don't worry about it. Don't fill out a NASA if you know you were in the right. It is only to be used to report actual deviations. Anyway, he sounded cool about it. You obviously had another aircraft close by to you that was the perpetraitor.

 

[Almerick07]

thats pretty much the question, should I fill out the NASA if I know I wasnt wrong? He also asked if I was talking to anybody...which I was. He did sound cool about it but a NASA would save my arse if for some reason they did pursue it. I just feel like submitting a NASA report would admit my guilt and bruise my ego. Also I was a minimum of 15nm from the surface shelf and was under any other floor in the area so it really couldnt have been me...just wonder why they followed me all around to get my story.

 

[AC560]

should I fill out the NASA if I know I wasnt wrong?

Do you know you weren't wrong? Can you prove you weren't wrong if you know you weren't wrong? Do you know if the supervisor watching the guy who seemed really cool is a nice guy as well?

There is nothing lost by filing a NASA report. If you submit it and the FAA doesn't pursue nobody will ever know. If you submit it and they decide to make you prove that aircraft wasn't you, you have coverage.

Personally pride or not, if I thought I might be having a problem whether I thought I was right or wrong I would file the NASA.

 

[The_Russian]

Do you know you weren't wrong? Can you prove you weren't wrong if you know you weren't wrong? Do you know if the supervisor watching the guy who seemed really cool is a nice guy as well?

There is nothing lost by filing a NASA report. If you submit it and the FAA doesn't pursue nobody will ever know. If you submit it and they decide to make you prove that aircraft wasn't you, you have coverage.

Personally pride or not, if I thought I might be having a problem whether I thought I was right or wrong I would file the NASA.

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form. It can be used against you if the FAA decides to seek action. This pilot knows that he did not violate the airspace. The issue the contoller had was cleared up with a telephone call. A NASA report should NOT be filed.

 

[Almerick07]

I really dont think the issue is going to be pursued any further he said stuff like "i guess we can chalk this up as a leaning experience for both of us" and "the flight profile you described infact does not cross through the bravo" but on the other hand he said stuff like "well we cant be sure it was you at this time" and "this is a pretty serious violation" so i dont know. He did say "im not going to pursue this issue any further to put you at ease with that issue" but I know a guy personally who had that said to him and did get a letter in the mail. I almost think that filing a NASA report is the best thing to do, just incase they do pursue it I will atleast not face the consequences for an action that Im not guilty of....that would suck. Maybe a remark of somesort stating I was possibly the aircraft in question for the deviation. Ive never had to fill out a NASA report before, also the controller I talked to was the supervisor.

 

[AC560]

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form.

https://akama.arc.nasa.gov/asrs_ers/ASRS_ERS_Form_GENERAL_1a.pdf

Is what I am referring to.

 

[JimNtexas]

1) If you think "should I file a NASA report?" the answer is always "yes I should" unless you engaged in a willful violation.

2) The report goes to NASA, not the FAA.

3) NASA pays the postage.

4) It can only help you should a certificate action occur.

 

[time builder]

The time for the NASA form (or ASAP) is before they bust you. If you've already made the phone call (or have been informed that you need to), it's too late.

I'd stick to your guns, note who you were talking to, find witnesses if able. I got out of a Class B violation once because I had a witness who could verify my position at a checkpoint.

 

[The_Russian]

https://akama.arc.nasa.gov/asrs_ers/ASRS_ERS_Form_GENERAL_1a.pdf

Is what I am referring to.

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot. Especially if the controlling agency knows the name of the pilot and the registration of the aircraft.

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error. If the pilot has made no error, then the pilot should not fill out a NASA form.

 

[AC560]

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot.

Section 91.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.25) prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents which are covered under paragraphs 7a(l) and 7a(2).

The time for the NASA form (or ASAP) is before they bust you. If you've already made the phone call (or have been informed that you need to), it's too late.

I don't know if that is correct or not, I know you have to file it within 10 days of the incident (you can do it online and get the receipt). You basically have nothing to lose filing it though as far as I am aware so I would file one.

 

[sqwkvfr]

If you ever think that you might have accidentally violated airspace, land at p19, count to 20 and take off again.

There's no tower to tell you to "call this number" and when you go under RADAR, you'll lose the "airspace violator" tag.

Where exactly were you and at what altitude? You have to be careful folowing the VFR flyways on the back of the TAC...the ones around PHX do not keep you out of airspace.

 

[The_Russian]

Section 91.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.25) prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents which are covered under paragraphs 7a(l) and 7a(2).

Yes, and that is for self-diclosed violations. In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make. Therefore, a NASA form would not be appropriate. Also, if the FAA found an incident filed on an ASAP report to be of criminal neglect, then the NASA form could be used against the pilot for violation, suspension, or revocation.

 

[The_Russian]

If you ever think that you might have accidentally violated airspace, land at p19, count to 20 and take off again.

There's no tower to tell you to "call this number" and when you go under RADAR, you'll lose the "airspace violator" tag.

Where exactly were you and at what altitude? You have to be careful folowing the VFR flyways on the back of the TAC...the ones around PHX do not keep you out of airspace.

If they wanted you bad enough, they would sent someone to meet you.

Flyway or corridor? Which do they have? A corridor should keep you clear of Class B.

 

[Almerick07]

I was following the Canal transition, well east of bravo airspace...they said they had me painted on radar north of phx. I was at 2500 MSL so I had to of been extremely close to sky harbor to even violate the bravo. I already sent in a NASA report and explained that I was only questioned as being an airspace violator and that it could have POSSIBLY been me but I did not believe it was.

 

[AC560]

In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make.

The pilot is guilty if ATC says he is, there is no presumption of innocence. You have to prove you aren't. If you have a NASA receipt certificate action stops. I also am not going to second guess the pilot but until the tapes get pulled who knows whether he made an error or didn't. Why take the risk?

Also, if the FAA found an incident filed on an ASAP report to be of criminal neglect, then the NASA form could be used against the pilot for violation, suspension, or revocation.

Which this isn't if you mess up file the form, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. JimNtexas says it best, if you have to ask the question you should file the form.

 

[JediNein]

Lots of false information above:
1. NASA ASRS must be filed within 10 days to provide any sort of protection. It can even be filed online now.
2. It doesn't matter if the FAA Inspectors, AFFR, Secret Service, Police, and FBI are waiting for you when you land. You've got 10 days.
3. 91.25 prohibits the FAA from using the ASRS report against a pilot. There has NEVER been a breech of this rule. FAA has tried and been denied with both the NTSB and NASA suggesting that FAA not attempt that again.
4. There is no requirement to have a problem to fill out a ASRS report. You can do it for confusing runway signs even if you didn't have a problem.
5. ASAP programs apply to 121 airlines and provide a method for FAA to penalize the 121 carrier. ASRS can be used by 121 pilots with ASAP programs.
6. There is no limit to the number of ASRS forms filed. There is a limit to how many times in a time frame that the filing of a report can stop the sanction from being carried out.
7. Any facility can forward a 'call this number' request, even days or weeks later. I've overheard some repeat offenders get tagged this way. "Cessna XXX, when you land, call this number regarding a flight last week."
8. Dropping under ATC RADAR does you no good. Luke's RADAR works quite well and overlaps PHX's. The violator tag stays for quite a while after the target is lost.

Never underestimate the powers of an irked controller's supervisor, especially when it comes to Class B incursions. Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Tower also has the phone numbers of the various FBOs. They can easily call and ask who is in the pattern or just landed.

You never know when an FAA Inspector will be on scene, either. The Inspector could be doing something completely unrelated, get a call, and is now looking for you.

Depending on how irked they are, the sheriff or local police can be there, too.

9. PHX Controllers and FSDO have a reputation for shoot first, ask questions after you're buried. Wouldn't you feel stupid to not have filed, having a suspension on your record, then be grounded for 30 days, when you could at least have filed an ASRS and still be flying?

Read the regs. Read the NASA ASRS documents. Then get off FI and file an ASRS ASAP!

 

[Almerick07]

once again NASA got my report and I dont think this issue is going to go any further. IF it does then ive covered myself, but thanks everyone for their input and ideas.

 

[Metro752]

Lots of false information above:
1. NASA ASRS must be filed within 10 days to provide any sort of protection. It can even be filed online now.
2. It doesn't matter if the FAA Inspectors, AFFR, Secret Service, Police, and FBI are waiting for you when you land. You've got 10 days.
3. 91.25 prohibits the FAA from using the ASRS report against a pilot. There has NEVER been a breech of this rule. FAA has tried and been denied with both the NTSB and NASA suggesting that FAA not attempt that again.
4. There is no requirement to have a problem to fill out a ASRS report. You can do it for confusing runway signs even if you didn't have a problem.
5. ASAP programs apply to 121 airlines and provide a method for FAA to penalize the 121 carrier. ASRS can be used by 121 pilots with ASAP programs.
6. There is no limit to the number of ASRS forms filed. There is a limit to how many times in a time frame that the filing of a report can stop the sanction from being carried out.
7. Any facility can forward a 'call this number' request, even days or weeks later. I've overheard some repeat offenders get tagged this way. "Cessna XXX, when you land, call this number regarding a flight last week."
8. Dropping under ATC RADAR does you no good. Luke's RADAR works quite well and overlaps PHX's. The violator tag stays for quite a while after the target is lost.

Never underestimate the powers of an irked controller's supervisor, especially when it comes to Class B incursions. Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Tower also has the phone numbers of the various FBOs. They can easily call and ask who is in the pattern or just landed.

You never know when an FAA Inspector will be on scene, either. The Inspector could be doing something completely unrelated, get a call, and is now looking for you.

Depending on how irked they are, the sheriff or local police can be there, too.

9. PHX Controllers and FSDO have a reputation for shoot first, ask questions after you're buried. Wouldn't you feel stupid to not have filed, having a suspension on your record, then be grounded for 30 days, when you could at least have filed an ASRS and still be flying?

Read the regs. Read the NASA ASRS documents. Then get off FI and file an ASRS ASAP!

thanks for the in depth info