violation

[Almerick07]

So I was cruising around under the PHX class B hopping from airport to airport and when I return to my airport ground tells me to call this number for a possible pilot deviation. Im dumbfounded and dont have a clue as to what I did....so I call. They asked if I was aware that I had busted the class B north of PHX, I said no I was not aware and was not sure how I had done it since I stayed far east in a VFR transition route and kept my altitude low. Anyways we came to the conclusion that he was not sure if it was me or not and said he was not going to pursue this any further and that it happens all the time. Should I fill out a NASA report? It was impossible that it was me but they somehow got my tail number out of the ordeal....suggestions advice?

 

[AC560]

Should I fill out a NASA report?

I would, remember under administrative law you are guilty until proven innocent.

 

[The_Russian]

So I was cruising around under the PHX class B hopping from airport to airport and when I return to my airport ground tells me to call this number for a possible pilot deviation. Im dumbfounded and dont have a clue as to what I did....so I call. They asked if I was aware that I had busted the class B north of PHX, I said no I was not aware and was not sure how I had done it since I stayed far east in a VFR transition route and kept my altitude low. Anyways we came to the conclusion that he was not sure if it was me or not and said he was not going to pursue this any further and that it happens all the time. Should I fill out a NASA report? It was impossible that it was me but they somehow got my tail number out of the ordeal....suggestions advice?

Don't worry about it. Don't fill out a NASA if you know you were in the right. It is only to be used to report actual deviations. Anyway, he sounded cool about it. You obviously had another aircraft close by to you that was the perpetraitor.

 

[Almerick07]

thats pretty much the question, should I fill out the NASA if I know I wasnt wrong? He also asked if I was talking to anybody...which I was. He did sound cool about it but a NASA would save my arse if for some reason they did pursue it. I just feel like submitting a NASA report would admit my guilt and bruise my ego. Also I was a minimum of 15nm from the surface shelf and was under any other floor in the area so it really couldnt have been me...just wonder why they followed me all around to get my story.

 

[AC560]

should I fill out the NASA if I know I wasnt wrong?

Do you know you weren't wrong? Can you prove you weren't wrong if you know you weren't wrong? Do you know if the supervisor watching the guy who seemed really cool is a nice guy as well?

There is nothing lost by filing a NASA report. If you submit it and the FAA doesn't pursue nobody will ever know. If you submit it and they decide to make you prove that aircraft wasn't you, you have coverage.

Personally pride or not, if I thought I might be having a problem whether I thought I was right or wrong I would file the NASA.

 

[The_Russian]

Do you know you weren't wrong? Can you prove you weren't wrong if you know you weren't wrong? Do you know if the supervisor watching the guy who seemed really cool is a nice guy as well?

There is nothing lost by filing a NASA report. If you submit it and the FAA doesn't pursue nobody will ever know. If you submit it and they decide to make you prove that aircraft wasn't you, you have coverage.

Personally pride or not, if I thought I might be having a problem whether I thought I was right or wrong I would file the NASA.

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form. It can be used against you if the FAA decides to seek action. This pilot knows that he did not violate the airspace. The issue the contoller had was cleared up with a telephone call. A NASA report should NOT be filed.

 

[Almerick07]

I really dont think the issue is going to be pursued any further he said stuff like "i guess we can chalk this up as a leaning experience for both of us" and "the flight profile you described infact does not cross through the bravo" but on the other hand he said stuff like "well we cant be sure it was you at this time" and "this is a pretty serious violation" so i dont know. He did say "im not going to pursue this issue any further to put you at ease with that issue" but I know a guy personally who had that said to him and did get a letter in the mail. I almost think that filing a NASA report is the best thing to do, just incase they do pursue it I will atleast not face the consequences for an action that Im not guilty of....that would suck. Maybe a remark of somesort stating I was possibly the aircraft in question for the deviation. Ive never had to fill out a NASA report before, also the controller I talked to was the supervisor.

 

[AC560]

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form.

https://akama.arc.nasa.gov/asrs_ers/ASRS_ERS_Form_GENERAL_1a.pdf

Is what I am referring to.

 

[JimNtexas]

1) If you think "should I file a NASA report?" the answer is always "yes I should" unless you engaged in a willful violation.

2) The report goes to NASA, not the FAA.

3) NASA pays the postage.

4) It can only help you should a certificate action occur.

 

[time builder]

The time for the NASA form (or ASAP) is before they bust you. If you've already made the phone call (or have been informed that you need to), it's too late.

I'd stick to your guns, note who you were talking to, find witnesses if able. I got out of a Class B violation once because I had a witness who could verify my position at a checkpoint.

 

[The_Russian]

https://akama.arc.nasa.gov/asrs_ers/ASRS_ERS_Form_GENERAL_1a.pdf

Is what I am referring to.

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot. Especially if the controlling agency knows the name of the pilot and the registration of the aircraft.

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error. If the pilot has made no error, then the pilot should not fill out a NASA form.

 

[AC560]

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot.

Section 91.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.25) prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents which are covered under paragraphs 7a(l) and 7a(2).

The time for the NASA form (or ASAP) is before they bust you. If you've already made the phone call (or have been informed that you need to), it's too late.

I don't know if that is correct or not, I know you have to file it within 10 days of the incident (you can do it online and get the receipt). You basically have nothing to lose filing it though as far as I am aware so I would file one.

 

[sqwkvfr]

If you ever think that you might have accidentally violated airspace, land at p19, count to 20 and take off again.

There's no tower to tell you to "call this number" and when you go under RADAR, you'll lose the "airspace violator" tag.

Where exactly were you and at what altitude? You have to be careful folowing the VFR flyways on the back of the TAC...the ones around PHX do not keep you out of airspace.

 

[The_Russian]

Section 91.25 of the Federal Aviation Regulations (FAR) (14 CFR 91.25) prohibits the use of any reports submitted to NASA under the ASRS (or information derived therefrom) in any disciplinary action, except information concerning criminal offenses or accidents which are covered under paragraphs 7a(l) and 7a(2).

Yes, and that is for self-diclosed violations. In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make. Therefore, a NASA form would not be appropriate. Also, if the FAA found an incident filed on an ASAP report to be of criminal neglect, then the NASA form could be used against the pilot for violation, suspension, or revocation.

 

[The_Russian]

If you ever think that you might have accidentally violated airspace, land at p19, count to 20 and take off again.

There's no tower to tell you to "call this number" and when you go under RADAR, you'll lose the "airspace violator" tag.

Where exactly were you and at what altitude? You have to be careful folowing the VFR flyways on the back of the TAC...the ones around PHX do not keep you out of airspace.

If they wanted you bad enough, they would sent someone to meet you.

Flyway or corridor? Which do they have? A corridor should keep you clear of Class B.

 

[Almerick07]

I was following the Canal transition, well east of bravo airspace...they said they had me painted on radar north of phx. I was at 2500 MSL so I had to of been extremely close to sky harbor to even violate the bravo. I already sent in a NASA report and explained that I was only questioned as being an airspace violator and that it could have POSSIBLY been me but I did not believe it was.

 

[AC560]

In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make.

The pilot is guilty if ATC says he is, there is no presumption of innocence. You have to prove you aren't. If you have a NASA receipt certificate action stops. I also am not going to second guess the pilot but until the tapes get pulled who knows whether he made an error or didn't. Why take the risk?

Also, if the FAA found an incident filed on an ASAP report to be of criminal neglect, then the NASA form could be used against the pilot for violation, suspension, or revocation.

Which this isn't if you mess up file the form, you have nothing to lose and everything to gain. JimNtexas says it best, if you have to ask the question you should file the form.

 

[JediNein]

Lots of false information above:
1. NASA ASRS must be filed within 10 days to provide any sort of protection. It can even be filed online now.
2. It doesn't matter if the FAA Inspectors, AFFR, Secret Service, Police, and FBI are waiting for you when you land. You've got 10 days.
3. 91.25 prohibits the FAA from using the ASRS report against a pilot. There has NEVER been a breech of this rule. FAA has tried and been denied with both the NTSB and NASA suggesting that FAA not attempt that again.
4. There is no requirement to have a problem to fill out a ASRS report. You can do it for confusing runway signs even if you didn't have a problem.
5. ASAP programs apply to 121 airlines and provide a method for FAA to penalize the 121 carrier. ASRS can be used by 121 pilots with ASAP programs.
6. There is no limit to the number of ASRS forms filed. There is a limit to how many times in a time frame that the filing of a report can stop the sanction from being carried out.
7. Any facility can forward a 'call this number' request, even days or weeks later. I've overheard some repeat offenders get tagged this way. "Cessna XXX, when you land, call this number regarding a flight last week."
8. Dropping under ATC RADAR does you no good. Luke's RADAR works quite well and overlaps PHX's. The violator tag stays for quite a while after the target is lost.

Never underestimate the powers of an irked controller's supervisor, especially when it comes to Class B incursions. Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Tower also has the phone numbers of the various FBOs. They can easily call and ask who is in the pattern or just landed.

You never know when an FAA Inspector will be on scene, either. The Inspector could be doing something completely unrelated, get a call, and is now looking for you.

Depending on how irked they are, the sheriff or local police can be there, too.

9. PHX Controllers and FSDO have a reputation for shoot first, ask questions after you're buried. Wouldn't you feel stupid to not have filed, having a suspension on your record, then be grounded for 30 days, when you could at least have filed an ASRS and still be flying?

Read the regs. Read the NASA ASRS documents. Then get off FI and file an ASRS ASAP!

 

[Almerick07]

once again NASA got my report and I dont think this issue is going to go any further. IF it does then ive covered myself, but thanks everyone for their input and ideas.

 

[Metro752]

Lots of false information above:
1. NASA ASRS must be filed within 10 days to provide any sort of protection. It can even be filed online now.
2. It doesn't matter if the FAA Inspectors, AFFR, Secret Service, Police, and FBI are waiting for you when you land. You've got 10 days.
3. 91.25 prohibits the FAA from using the ASRS report against a pilot. There has NEVER been a breech of this rule. FAA has tried and been denied with both the NTSB and NASA suggesting that FAA not attempt that again.
4. There is no requirement to have a problem to fill out a ASRS report. You can do it for confusing runway signs even if you didn't have a problem.
5. ASAP programs apply to 121 airlines and provide a method for FAA to penalize the 121 carrier. ASRS can be used by 121 pilots with ASAP programs.
6. There is no limit to the number of ASRS forms filed. There is a limit to how many times in a time frame that the filing of a report can stop the sanction from being carried out.
7. Any facility can forward a 'call this number' request, even days or weeks later. I've overheard some repeat offenders get tagged this way. "Cessna XXX, when you land, call this number regarding a flight last week."
8. Dropping under ATC RADAR does you no good. Luke's RADAR works quite well and overlaps PHX's. The violator tag stays for quite a while after the target is lost.

Never underestimate the powers of an irked controller's supervisor, especially when it comes to Class B incursions. Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Tower also has the phone numbers of the various FBOs. They can easily call and ask who is in the pattern or just landed.

You never know when an FAA Inspector will be on scene, either. The Inspector could be doing something completely unrelated, get a call, and is now looking for you.

Depending on how irked they are, the sheriff or local police can be there, too.

9. PHX Controllers and FSDO have a reputation for shoot first, ask questions after you're buried. Wouldn't you feel stupid to not have filed, having a suspension on your record, then be grounded for 30 days, when you could at least have filed an ASRS and still be flying?

Read the regs. Read the NASA ASRS documents. Then get off FI and file an ASRS ASAP!

thanks for the in depth info

 

[sqwkvfr]

If they wanted you bad enough, they would sent someone to meet you.

Is that right? Is someone from PHX approach gonna hop in a car to make the 25-30 minute drive to P19 AFTER they saw you drop off RADAR in the area in the hopes of finding you in the midst of all of the activity at the airport? Think, McFly, think.

The controllers in the area have told me many stories of airspace violators that got away scott free because they landed at Stellar.

Now, if you buzzed POTUS while he was in town, I'm certain that LEOs would be involved, and that's a different story.

Flyway or corridor? Which do they have? A corridor should keep you clear of Class B.

I was referring to a the flyways that you commonly find on the back of a TAC chart, not a corridor. PHX class B has no corridors, and the transition routes -including the new ones- require a clearance.

 

[Almerick07]

ive heard stories of aircraft just descending below south mountain or scud running on the southwest side of the estrellas and getting away with it....ill just send in a NASA report and avoid really pissing them off, they seemed pretty laid back when i talked to them.

 

[Way2Broke]

Fill it out, it can't hurt. Also, you should always keep AOPA's prepaid legal.

Name one thing negative that could come from filling it out, and then ask yourself what positives could come from it. That should make the decision pretty simple. And NASA reports are not JUST for violations. They are for any time you think something is unsafe. Well either you or someone else did something unsafe here.

 

[timeoff]

Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Just curious, how would one get additional violations for not calling pattern legs at an uncontrolled field?

 

[JediNein]

The controllers in the area have told me many stories of airspace violators that got away scott free because they landed at Stellar.

The PHX Approach guys have shown me how they tag a violator and listen in on CTAF. I'm sure the guys that didn't get away aren't talking. Why risk a career or a suspension over it?

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Almerick07,

It seems like there are a few posts here that are not exactly correct.

1) If this ever goes further, you will not be the one who has to prove you were not in the Bravo. This is first and foremost and when it comes to talking to the FAA, don't admit anything other than you were flying that day. Kathy Yotis (sp?) at AOPA will tell you the same thing as that is what she told me.

2) The NASA form will help you as long as you do it before the FAA (inspectors) brings the situation to your attention and within the 10 day time frame.

3) The one draw back to filing the NASA form is that it is a once in a life time get out of jail almost free card. That doesn't mean you can't file another one. It just means that it will not protect you for a similar transgression. Land below minimums next time, fill out the report and it will help. Just remember the violation will still be there, just not the penalty. Oh, if nothing comes of it, then you can still file a NASA form for an airspace violation in the future. You only get to "use it once".

Now I would fill out the report ASAP. Don't admit to doing anything wrong. Just say you depart Kxxx at 13:00 headed north under the Bravo at all times and landed back at Kxxx at 13:30. In your report you could say that you must have been dangerously close to another aircraft as ATC confused you with another aircraft and thus why you are filing. On the slip in the remarks or whatever it is called, just put PHX Bravo airspace. The FAA can not get the report and the header will cover you for the incident. If you get a letter of investigation anytime soon, hire an attorney. This is easily beatable as long as you don't incriminate yourself. Even the controllers statement of "they must have confused you with another aircraft" could be admitted to help your case. Good luck feel free to PM with questions.

 

[The_Russian]

Agreed. I would have NEVER admitted that it could have possibly been me. If you know you didn't do it, stand by that. Do not fill out a NASA because you have absolutely nothing to self-disclose. If you recieve a letter of investigation, then seek legal council.

 

[JediNein]

Almerick07,

It seems like there are a few posts here that are not exactly correct.

And this trend continues. Nothing personal Lear WB, but NASA's ASRS Program seems to be one of the most misunderstood things out there. :uzi:

1) If this ever goes further, you will not be the one who has to prove you were not in the Bravo.

He already did admit he was flying that day. Make no mistake, the pilot is considered guilty until proven innocent. Although the FAA has some burden of proof, it is the pilot that has the burden to prove innocence.

2) The NASA form will help you as long as you do it before the FAA (snip) brings the situation to your attention

It's too late, the FAA is already aware of the situation. ATC is the FAA. But, ASRS doesn't care if the FAA Inspectors meet you when you land! You have TEN DAYS.

It just means that it will not protect you for a similar transgression.

False!

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm specifically:

9. ENFORCEMENT POLICY
The Administrator of the FAA will perform his/her responsibility under Title 49, United States Code, Subtitle VII, and enforce the statute and the FAR in a manner that will reduce or eliminate the possibility of, or recurrence of, aircraft accidents. The FAA enforcement procedures are set forth in Part 13 of the FAR (14 CFR Part 13) and FAA enforcement handbooks.
In determining the type and extent of the enforcement action to be taken in a particular case, the following factors are considered:
a. nature of the violation;
b.whether the violation was inadvertent or deliberate;
c. the certificate holder's level of experience and responsibility;
d. attitude of the violator;
e. the hazard to safety of others which should have been foreseen;
f. action taken by employer or other government authority;
g. length of time which has elapsed since violation;
h. the certificate holder's use of the certificate;
i. the need for special deterrent action in a particular regulatory area, or segment of the aviation community; and
j. presence of any factors involving national interest, such as the use of aircraft for criminal purposes.

The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR is considered by FAA to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
a. the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
b. the violation did not involve a criminal offense, or accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
d. the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
e. the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA under ASRS.

 

[sqwkvfr]

The PHX Approach guys have shown me how they tag a violator and listen in on CTAF. I'm sure the guys that didn't get away aren't talking. Why risk a career or a suspension over it?

Good God!! What in the hell is he/she risking if they've ALEADY violated airspace?!?!?

My question is: Why risk guaranteeing a violation by not trying it?

This is just something that I offered up based on conversations that I've had with controllers in the area, it's not "sqwkvfr's guaranteed get out of jail free method."

Get it?

Yeah, they COULD call an FBO, if there was an FBO at Stellar.

...or would you like to tell me more about how well Luke's RADAR can see through South Mountain and keep that violator tag on aircraft that are on the ground???? ...or how the FAA can violate you for not making calls in the pattern????

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Hey Jedi,

Thanks for at least clarifying the last one. I did not realize that you could use a NASA form for the same thing after 5 years. Is this a recent change?

Otherwise, I disagree with you on the rest. As someone who had an episode with the FAA a few years back, I got some insight. First, if it is a question of where you were at, they have to prove that with radar data or eye witness reports. Review case law on the appeals and you will see how the NTSB Judges have ruled on that. Call Kathy Yodice at AOPA legal and she will confirm.

You are correct that ATC is the FAA just like FSS. However, if an inspector starts the investigation before you file, no luck. The rule is really meant to prevent people from taking advantage after getting a letter of investigation. Not like they would ever come within 10 days. Also, the FAA's council does not have to accept the NASA form. This would more than likely be overturned by the NTSB judge, but that is the way it is. Of course they do unless there are other circumstance that are listed above in the last part. However, deliberate is up for interpretation. Don't get a standard briefing and it can be considered deliberate through neglect. Believe me, I have been through all of this in a process that took over a year and end with my record being crystal clear. I had to go to the folks at duats.com to get records, but they provided them and the Presidential TFR violation went away.

The advice that I would take from this above all else, if you get a letter of investigation from the FAA, hire an attorney. Don't make any statements without one.