violation

[avbug]

Don't worry about it. Don't fill out a NASA if you know you were in the right. It is only to be used to report actual deviations.

WRONG! Doworry about any potential violation. Even if you think you were right, because what you think and often what you know, is entirely irrelevant and unimportant. What someone else thinks...such as the person gathering evidence to use agaisnt you (can you say recorded telephone conversation with a FAA ATC supervisor??) which may later be processed for enforcement action.

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form. It can be used against you if the FAA decides to seek action.

WRONG! No, it can't. Only in the cases of intentional violation of the regulation or in cases involving criminal acts.

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot. Especially if the controlling agency knows the name of the pilot and the registration of the aircraft.

WRONG! You need to learn a little more about the program. The FAA CANNOT use the information contained in the body of the report against you, though it can point them in the direction to look elsewhere...but not if they learn about the incident from the report. READ!!

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error.

WRONG! It's a format for reporting and commenting on safety related issues without endangering one's self.

Yes, and that is for self-diclosed violations. In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make. Therefore, a NASA form would not be appropriate.

WRONG!!

If you have a NASA receipt certificate action stops.

Wrong. A lot of pilots think that, and it's not so. If you fit within all the parameters of the program, you will not pay the penalty, but in many cases, certificate action continues. You have a violation on your record, but you don't actually see your certificate suspended.

Do not fill out a NASA because you have absolutely nothing to self-disclose.

Wrong. Very bad advice based on a grave misunderstanding of a program that was never about self-disclosure or hiding pilots from penalties. It's a safety program that protects you from injury in reporting safety related issues.

 

[pilotyip]

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

Thank you (and Jedi) for mentioning this.

The program has managed to come to be viewed by pilots as an "it's all about ME" program, so the discussion devolves to "well if I didn't do anything wrong, I shouldn't file." Yes, the program's protected status may save your ass, but it's purpose is to save everyone's ass by accumulating data that might lead to better safety practices.

Heck, the OP is describing an event in which ATC misidentified an aircraft it was tracking. ATC errors are as much a concern of the safety program as pilot deviations.

 

[The_Russian]

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

Agreed.

 

[The_Russian]

Quotes from Avbug

WRONG! Doworry about any potential violation. Even if you think you were right, because what you think and often what you know, is entirely irrelevant and unimportant. What someone else thinks...such as the person gathering evidence to use agaisnt you (can you say recorded telephone conversation with a FAA ATC supervisor??) which may later be processed for enforcement action.

Yes, worry about it. If you did nothing wrong why would you fill out a NASA form? I think we kinda agree here. And, if the ATC agency is seeking a violation then legal council should be used, not a NASA form.

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

It wasn't. But, it has become a way for the FAA to study the statistics of pilot error. They can find where a lot of pilots make mistakes, and re-tailor the airspace. Or, they can change navigation to make things safer. I agree that it is not designed to "save your ass".

WRONG! No, it can't. Only in the cases of intentional violation of the regulation or in cases involving criminal acts.

How can this pilot prove that he did not intentionally violate airspace? How can this pilot prove what he did was not civil or criminal neglect? What if a transport category aircraft had an RA because of him? Does filling out this form make him innocent? No, it does not. The FAA will and cannot take action for SAFETY related issues. However, if it is a pilot deviation that is self-disclosed on the form, they CAN take action.

WRONG! You need to learn a little more about the program. The FAA CANNOT use the information contained in the body of the report against you, though it can point them in the direction to look elsewhere...but not if they learn about the incident from the report. READ!!

Two people I know almost lost their certificates because they took off on the wrong runway in a transport category aircraft. It was an uncontrolled field at 5am. They self-diclosed on a NASA, they got busted. The FAA found their error as criminal neglect. Luckily, the union only let the FAA take their jobs away.

WRONG! It's a format for reporting and commenting on safety related issues without endangering one's self.

Agreed, and originally yes. It's use has changed a bit. The ASRS program using the NASA form is for safety related issues and pilot self-disclosure of safety related issues involving pilot error.

 

[The_Russian]

Avbug,

Even though we have different perspectives on the program, we both agree that he has no reason to fill out the form.

 

[The_Russian]

Is he saying "stop the catbox"?

 

[JediNein]

Obviously facts have no bearing on opinions. But, for the last time. . .

I've watched an FAA Inspector stand on a roof of an airport building, not at Stellar, elsewhere, with a handheld and binocs calmly taking down N-Numbers. You can try all sorts of stuff to get out of a violation. Go for it, but be sure you don't cross the line between inadvertent and deliberate. Trying to hide it after the fact really irritates the inspectors and they are much more likely to pursue the maximum penalty versus counseling, letter of warning/correction, or remedial training.

File an ASRS anyways.

It's free, if you need the report slip you have it, and it doesn't matter when the FAA becomes aware of the violation. The rule is 10 days.

For others that have posted, so a pilot should take a 30 day suspension somewhere within 1-3 years down the road, so that 1-5 years down the road, if something else were to happen, they would be able to use an ASRS then?

That's just nuts. Most pilots do not have ANY sort of violation after the first.

There are a few pilots that find themselves constantly breaking rules, and ASRS won't help them as their attitude and disregard for regulations prove they don't need to be a pilot.

AOPA Legal does not rank high in my experience. They tend to seek the fastest, cheapest way out, which is fine for the average private pilot. If you want a career in this industry, the fastest, cheapest way out may have you interviewing with a suspension on your record. Sure it can be overcome, but if you were innocent, you'll have to lie about how you 'deserved' the violation and won't ever do it again.

But don't take my word for it. Go do the research yourself. Read the NTSB Orders and Opinions and see just how many had the full NTSB Board decide in favor of the FAA. See how many decided the pilot's certificates should be REVOKED, but for the timely filing of a ASRS report, the sentence was commuted.

 

[AC560]

Wrong. A lot of pilots think that, and it's not so. If you fit within all the parameters of the program, you will not pay the penalty, but in many cases, certificate action continues. You have a violation on your record, but you don't actually see your certificate suspended.

Sorry if my point was unclear, I meant to convey that you wouldn't receive a suspension of privileges.

Very bad advice based on a grave misunderstanding of a program that was never about self-disclosure or hiding pilots from penalties.

What is intended and what is are often two different things.

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

I don't believe this is correct. You will not gain protection from a NASA report if you have had a violation in the last 5yrs (whether you filed a report or not). Thus if you choose not to file a report in this incident not only will you not have the protection provided by the program but you will be unable to gain protection from it for five more years.

Could be wrong on this but from rereading some stuff it seems to only indication a violation, if you have something different would like to read it.

 

[The_Russian]

I've watched an FAA Inspector stand on a roof of an airport building, not at Stellar, elsewhere, with a handheld and binocs calmly taking down N-Numbers. You can try all sorts of stuff to get out of a violation. Go for it, but be sure you don't cross the line between inadvertent and deliberate. Trying to hide it after the fact really irritates the inspectors and they are much more likely to pursue the maximum penalty versus counseling, letter of warning/correction, or remedial training.

Right on.