violation

[The_Russian]

You're aware this is the ASRS program not the NASA program, right? This is not the ASAP program, either. Never has there been a breach of confidence in the ASRS program. You state otherwise; provide the citations to show your case, or stop bantying around these false allegations.

Ok, so which one did he file. I am pretty sure it says NASA report:

already sent in a NASA report and explained that I was only questioned as being an airspace violator and that it could have POSSIBLY been me but I did not believe it was.

He should not have self-diclosed anything if he did nothing wrong.

You insinuate that the FAA learned of the violations of certain aviators from their ASRS report, and subsequently used the information contained in the report to press for enorcement action agaist the pilots. False and wildly far fetched...cite the case the references to the disposition of the case, if you can. I seriously doubt you can...and if you do, you'll quickly find that you have the facts wrong.

You also assert that the FAA took the pilots jobs. The FAA doesn't do that. You assert that the pilots only lost their jobs, which the FAA took from them, rather than suffer loss of their certificate or a suspension? You must be joking.

You know as well as I do that it is against the forum rules to post names. Therefore, I am not going to give specifics. I will not be the one to cause harm to these pilots careers any further. What happened, has happened. Read the darn reg. It says:
any enforcement action except information concerning accidents or criminal offenses which are wholly excluded from the Program.

If the FAA finds criminal intent, they can take certificate action. Thats what they did to these two pilots. Even though their error was a mistake.

The FAA never took the pilot's jobs. The company did. The FAA wanted to revoke their certificates. It was a bagan between the union/company and the FAA.

You keep waving about this false assertion to support your misunderstanding of the program, when there has never been such a case in the history of the program. Ever.

Where is your proof of that? You want me to "prove it", you prove it!

 

[The_Russian]

NASA does not need, nor look for an error on the part of a reporting party to include an ASRS report in the ASRS database. All reports go in the database. Again, the ASRS program is not designed for reporting errors. It's designed for safety related issues.

So...........why should he file an ASRS report? He never made an error. He said it himself.

If you have been involved in a situation in which you may face legal consequences, then you are protected from prosecution based on the report, in order to encourage you to freely donate your story to the database. That's the promise of NASA in the ASRS program.

What about an error that risks 110 people on an airliner's lives? Criminal charges can take that "protection" away very quickly.

The other half of the pledge comes from the FAA, which offers as a gift to also encourage you to contribute, the waiving of any sanction arising out of enforcement related to the incident written in the report. This is a side benifit designed to protect the reporter, and encourage honesty in reporting. Accordingly, there is no requirement to be guilty or not guilty of an enforceable action when writing a safety report. I've written them myself when finding a safety issue at an airport, over errors found on aeronautical charts or proceedures, and multiple other reasons for which I had no stake but to contribue to safety. That's what the program is for.

Agreed. It is not for pilot error. It is for safety related issues, much like a safety hotline.

If I commit an error, however, the program encourages me to speak up, to add my experience to the pile, by promising not to beat me up for it. Individually, the FAA promises (and has never broken that promise) not to use the report against me. That's the way it works, and it is ironclad.

Once again, prove it. And, tell me they cannot charge you criminally for the wrong mistake. If they can prove that you knew better than to make the mistake, YOU WILL HAVE CERTIFICATE ACTION TAKEN AGAINST YOU!

No, just you, and you keep saying it wrong. Again, it's an ASRS report, not a "NASA" report. You can report for all kinds of reasons, but the bottom line is tha that the report is there to contribute to safety across the board. The report will protect you from paying the penalty, but not against the administrative action associated with the penalty.

Same program, different ways to refer to it.

Actually it does, within the clearly defined parameters set forth by the program, with respect to the penalties to be imposed by the FAA, and against prosecution based on the contents of the body of the report.


File the report. Stick to the facts, don't treat it like a soapbox and a legal defense. It's there to report safety related issues, and if you believe your situation may be safety related, report it...only you can decide if it's truly safety related...and at a minimum, reporting protects you from penalties that may be imposed by the FAA associated with the incident about which you report.

With respect to an attorney, waiting until a LOI (letter of investigation) is received is not the correct timing to seek consultation. Get on a legal plan, and consult an attorney right off the bat. It may be the cheapest money you spend.

Agreed. If it is not used for pilot-error that was not caused by a safety related issue. If it was purely pilot error, you risk a possible LOI.

I still stand by the fact that he should not have filed the ASRS report to NASA. If he knows that he did not make a mistake related to a safety issue, then he should not file.

 

[GenericPilot]

Call AOPA or an aviation attorney

Call an expert. Spend a few bucks and get the proper answers from an "expert" instead of from a bunch of strangers on a free message board. It's your license and your record. Good Luck.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Russian, you are so out-whitted here that it's amazing you keep fighting.

You have asked AVBUG, twice, to prove things in the negative. Not only don't you know Law, but it's a basic tenet of debate that no one can prove a negative.

You have also diverted the subject to whether or not "PHX Class B" should hire a lawyer. That was not the question. The issue is whether he should file a NASA Report. The answer is quite clearly, "YES."

Why is it that you can't say, among you brother aviators, that you are wrong? Is it because you are flying 121 (and yes I have too) that you think that the job you are fortunate to have makes you some sort of intellectual?

You are a bullheaded individual who can't see that you're wrong; that's unprofessional even in a Cessna 150!

Let me give you some advice. One of the the greatest skills in our business is the ability to say (and to know): "Maybe I am wrong." Regardless of how you may have gotten past HR at your interview, your inability to do that has been exposed in this discussion. You must/will be a horrible Captain to fly with by sticking to your point-of-view amidst overwhelming opinion against you. I would have so much respect for you if you just said those words!

Most professionals on this Board know when we know what we're talking about, versus when we're rendering an opinion. We speak up; we listen for feedback; we acknowledge good point, and apologize when necessary. It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

 

[fromunda]

It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

Didn't you know......Russian is our resident Gulfstream PFT whore. I guess that is what happens when you PAY for your job.

Ask her, she will openly admit it.

 

[JediNein]

Wow. When I was interested in flying a Gulfstream II, all I had to do was sleep with the Captain, no payment required. I think that offer is still open to any decent-looking female.

 

[siucavflight]

Fill out the form, if nothing happens it wont matter, but if they do decide to persue it you will glad you did.

 

[AC560]

If he doesn't use the report to protect his certificate, then it doesn't compromise him for years to come.

I am still unclear on this.

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The waiver of penalties is subject to the following limitations: (A) the alleged violation must be inadvertent and not deliberate, (B) it must not reveal an event subject to Section 609 of the Federal Aviation Act, (C) the reporter must not have been found guilty of a violation of the FAR's or the Federal Aviation Act during the preceding five years, and (D) the ASRS report must be submitted within 10 days of the event."

Where is everyone getting that using the report to protect the certificate is limited to every five years?
[/FONT]

 

[The_Russian]

Russian, you are so out-whitted here that it's amazing you keep fighting.

And what have you brought to the conversation besides the pointing of a finger?

You have asked AVBUG, twice, to prove things in the negative. Not only don't you know Law, but it's a basic tenet of debate that no one can prove a negative.

He absolutely can. Why can't Avbug find a press release of something from the FAA to prove his point? Something saying: "We have never sought certificate action on any pilot, etc. for filing an ASRS report through NASA." I know first hand that two people I know had certificate action taken upon them for filing a report in the ASRS system for an inadvertent mistake.

You have also diverted the subject to whether or not "PHX Class B" should hire a lawyer. That was not the question. The issue is whether he should file a NASA Report. The answer is quite clearly, "YES."

I most certainly have not. I stand by my statement that he should not file a NASA report.

Why is it that you can't say, among you brother aviators, that you are wrong? Is it because you are flying 121 (and yes I have too) that you think that the job you are fortunate to have makes you some sort of intellectual?

Absolutely not. I admit when I make a mistake. You just don't like it that I do not believe that other on here are correct.

You are a bullheaded individual who can't see that you're wrong; that's unprofessional even in a Cessna 150!

Don't question my professionalism. YOu have no right to judge my character from a few argumentative posts.

Let me give you some advice. One of the the greatest skills in our business is the ability to say (and to know): "Maybe I am wrong." Regardless of how you may have gotten past HR at your interview, your inability to do that has been exposed in this discussion. You must/will be a horrible Captain to fly with by sticking to your point-of-view amidst overwhelming opinion against you. I would have so much respect for you if you just said those words!

I do not need your advice. Lose the tone. You have no idea what it is like to share a cockpit with me. You cannot even speculate what it is like to fly with me from an internet message board. I do not need your respect, nor do I desire it after your words about me.

Most professionals on this Board know when we know what we're talking about, versus when we're rendering an opinion. We speak up; we listen for feedback; we acknowledge good point, and apologize when necessary. It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

Slipped through the cracks? Are you kidding me? You know nothing about me to judge me in such a way.

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Lastly,

Keep in mind that you have brought nothing positive to the conversation. Nor have you brought any material to influence anyones position on the subject. You judge my character, but I have never pointed a finger or slandered anyone's professionalism. Take a look at the way you are posting before you say anything about my career.

 

[The_Russian]

Didn't you know......Russian is our resident Gulfstream PFT whore. I guess that is what happens when you PAY for your job.

Ask her, she will openly admit it.

Come say that to my face. I will gladly pick you up at FLL when you want to talk. You also know nothing about me. How dare you post against my character.