violation

[Alamanach]

Russian,

Forgive me for going slow here, but I'm having trouble getting a lock on just where you're coming from. In various places above, you've said:

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error... The ASRS system is also to be used to report aviation safety related issues not related to the pilot or pilot error... (I)t is not a "get out of jail free" card.

I think I can understand that; it's an essentially neutral means for reporting safety issues. Cool. What I can't figure out how to jibe that with this:

I believe that the pilot should not file the ASRS report due to the fact that he knows he was not the sought pilot. If he did not make a deviation due to safety, then he should not file. He knows, and explained to the controlling agency, that it was not him.

If it truly was him, and he was sure about it. A filing of a ASRS report would be applicable due to an accidental deviation into class B...

On another note, his filing (w)ill falsify the statistics. This would be due to a deviation filed that was not committed.

What does being a sought pilot have to do with anything? If ASRS is not a "get out of jail free card", then why does it matter whether the violating pilot was Almerick07 or not? Why does it matter that he already cleared it up with ATC?

 

[The_Russian]

Russian,

Forgive me for going slow here, but I'm having trouble getting a lock on just where you're coming from. In various places above, you've said:

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error... The ASRS system is also to be used to report aviation safety related issues not related to the pilot or pilot error... (I)t is not a "get out of jail free" card.

I think I can understand that; it's an essentially neutral means for reporting safety issues. Cool. What I can't figure out how to jibe that with this:

I believe that the pilot should not file the ASRS report due to the fact that he knows he was not the sought pilot. If he did not make a deviation due to safety, then he should not file. He knows, and explained to the controlling agency, that it was not him.

If it truly was him, and he was sure about it. A filing of a ASRS report would be applicable due to an accidental deviation into class B...

On another note, his filing (w)ill falsify the statistics. This would be due to a deviation filed that was not committed.

What does being a sought pilot have to do with anything? If ASRS is not a "get out of jail free card", then why does it matter whether the violating pilot was Almerick07 or not? Why does it matter that he already cleared it up with ATC?

What I am trying to say is that it depends completely on the individual situation as to whether or not to file a report in the ASRS system.

He is the "sought pilot" because ATC has his N-number and name. And, they have accused him of something he said he did not do. After the accusation, the pilot said that he clarified the issue and told the controller that it was not him. If the pilot was Almerick07. And, ATC has made contact with you via the landline. Then, your name and registration have already been recorded.

It does not matter whether or not he cleared the issue up with ATC. If, and I say if, the FAA wanted to persue action they could.

 

[Alamanach]

He is the "sought pilot" because ATC has his N-number and name. And, they have accused him of something he said he did not do. After the accusation, the pilot said that he clarified the issue and told the controller that it was not him. If the pilot was Almerick07. And, ATC has made contact with you via the landline. Then, your name and registration have already been recorded.

Yes, I understand why he is (or isn't) the sought pilot. What I'm asking is why any of this is relevant to whether he files an ASRS report.

 

[The_Russian]

Yes, I understand why he is (or isn't) the sought pilot. What I'm asking is why any of this is relevant to whether he files an ASRS report.

The reason as to why he should not file an ASRS report is based on the fact that he did not violate the sanctity of Class B airspace. The deviator was another pilot. If he files a report to the ASRS, he will be falsly accusing himself of a deviation he did not make.

 

[AAflyer]

Lots of false information above:

5. ASAP programs apply to 121 airlines and provide a method for FAA to penalize the 121 carrier. ASRS can be used by 121 pilots with ASAP programs.

Well as Hertz would say "Not exactly", however not flying for a 121 carrier I would not expect you to be very familiar with the program. The original ASAP program came from AA, I thought I would post some history and facts about it for you and others.

Regards,
AAflyer

WHAT IS IT? HOW DOES IT WORK? WHY SHOULD I SUBMIT A REPORT?
A HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE
In 1993 140 Federal Aviation Regulations, (FAR) violations were filed against American Airlines pilots. Considering the airline flew in excess of 750,0000 departures that year, it’s a fairly insignificant number (unless you were one of the 140 crewmembers involved). The Federal Aviation Administration, (FAA) is mandated to enforce the FARS. Part of this mandate includes taking the appropriate action with a pilot when it is determined that he/she did in fact violate a particular FAR. Enforcement action may include civil penalty, license suspension or revocation or administrative action.
Captain Scott Griffith, who was the Allied Pilots Association, (APA) safety chairman during this period, proposed the initial ASAP program to American Airlines (AA), the FAA and the APA. The initial document was based on the U.S. Air Altitude Awareness Program (a demonstration program that lasted 18 months). The ASAP program started at American in June 1994.


WHY ASAP?

Remember the FAA is charged with enforcing the FARS. Their ability to go beyond the enforcement issue is limited, i.e., their mandate for corrective action to the pilot has limited options. The main goal of ASAP is to encourage pilots to report any safety-related issues they witness during daily flight operations.. An added incentive for pilots is the administrative closure of FAR violations. If a pilot is involved in a violation of the FARS, and the FAA has independent knowledge of the event, the FAA may file a “pilot deviation” against the pilot-in-command/crew.
If all pilots involved in the event submit ASAP’s and meet certain requirements listed in the ASAP M.O.U. (Memorandum of Understanding), then the event will be closed out with no more than administrative and corrective action.


WHY SHOULD I SUBMIT AN ASAP?

I have a safety concern that in my opinion needs attention.
I made a mistake and I want to notify other crewmembers through ASAP so they do not commit the same error.

I/we may have violated an FAR, altitude or course deviation, etc., and the FAA has notified me of this deviation or I suspect they may have knowledge of the event.


WHO NEEDS TO SUBMIT AN ASAP?
To be able to participate in the program every cockpit crewmember must submit an ASAP within 24 hours of ;(a) when the event occurred or ;(b) when the crewmember was notified of a possible FAR violation. The first crewmember to submit a report satisfies the 24-hour requirement for the whole crew, but again, each crewmember must submit an individual report.


WHAT HAPPENS IF I RECEIVE NOTICE FROM THE FAA OR A CALL FROM AN ERT MEMBER THAT THE FAA HAS FILED A FAR DEVIATION?
If you receive a “Letter of Investigation” from the FAA, you must, first of all, notify your Base Manager or Chief Pilot within 3 calendar days, as stated in FM Pt 1, Section 3 page 9, par 5.10. If you have not submitted an ASAP, it is strongly recommended you complete a report and notify the other crewmembers involved. If you need additional guidance please contact the APA ERT representative at XXX-XXX-XXXX or the AA representative. The Event Review Team (ERT), will make the determination whether or not your report will be accepted into the program. If included, your report will be handled through the ASAP process. If your report is excluded by unanimous consensus of the ERT, then the normal FAA investigation process will take place.


WHAT WILL EXCLUDE MY REPORT FROM ASAP?
Did you commit this event willfully (on purpose)? If the ERT determines the answer is yes, then you will be excluded. If alcohol or illegal drugs are involved, then you will be excluded from ASAP. If the ERT is able to determine that you should have known about this event, but did not submit a report, then you will be excluded from consideration into the program.


“MY S80 WENT OUT OF PERF MODE INTO VERTICAL SPEED AND WE BUSTED OUR ALTITUDE BY 300 FEET. THE ATC CONTROLLER SAID NOTHING AND TCAS GAVE NO TA OR RA. SHOULD I FILE AND ASAP?”
Yes! ATC will not always tell you there was a loss of radar separation and the conflict alert, i.e., the “snitch” went off. Do not use TCAS to determine whether or not you should submit an ASAP. We have all heard controllers issue telephone numbers to other flights “to give us a call when you get on the ground”. This is a no brainer to submit an ASAP but as stated earlier, don’t rely on ATC to determine whether or not to file a report.

WHAT ARE BUILDING BLOCKS OF ASAP?

IT IS A SAFETY PROGRAM
First and foremost, ASAP is a Safety Program. Prior to June 1994, the FAA and more importantly, American Airlines and the Allied Pilots Association would only be made aware of safety concerns through FAA investigations, high level incidents and of course accidents. This is re-active safety vs. pro-active safety. The goal, through your reports is to PREVENT incidents and accidents. ASAP is charged to identify flight safety concerns and achieve corrective action. ASAP is NOT an immunity program or get-out-of- jail-free card for pilots to “end run” the FARS or company investigations. As of March 2002, AA pilots have submitted over 28,000 reports.


CREWMEMBER SOLE SOURCE REPORTING
“The FAA, AA, and APA unconditionally recognize the concept of sole source reporting by providing the incentive for employees to report events that may have otherwise been undisclosed. An event is considered sole source to the FAA when no independent disclosure outside of ASAP identifies the event and all other evidence of the event is discovered by or otherwise predicated on an ASAP report.”


UNANIMOUS CONSENSUS OF THE ERT
“The success of ASAP is built on the trust and cooperation of the ERT in achieving a unanimous consensus on each event that is reported. Under ASAP, the term unanimous consensus is defined as the voluntary agreement of all three ERT representatives. A unanimous consensus means that all members support a particular decision or recommendation by the ERT. The unanimous consensus applies to the ERT decision as to whether a report is accepted into the program as well as corrective actions arising from an event.”

 

[AAflyer]

Part II

CORRECTIVE ACTION
Corrective Action is not disciplinary action. Corrective Action addresses the safety concern generated by the event. Corrective action may take the form of attending an ERT interview, a human factors program review, simulator training or a combination of the above.
“Consistent with the AA policy of “training to proficiency” all training sessions resulting from ASAP recommendations/corrective actions are conducted only on the skills related to the event reported. All training-to-proficiency is considered training rather than checking or evaluation. No proficiency, competency, oral or line checks are performed as a result of an ASAP report or investigation.”

“Reporting employees complying with ERT recommendations will be paid training pay, as appropriate for the time spent meeting with the ERT or otherwise training to proficiency.”


AFTER YOU'VE SENT YOUR REPORT?

I’VE SENT MY REPORT…NOW WHAT?
After you submit your report, the ASAP administrator processes it. “Processing” your report applies an appropriate event code and verifies employee and flight data are correct. Any person’s name or employee number is removed from the body of the report.
<Top>

WHO SEES MY REPORT?
Processed reports are delivered each business day to the ERT members. The ERT members consist of a representative from AA, APA and the FAA. If your report requires additional research and investigation outside of the ERT, a de-identified copy will be sent to the appropriate department within AA. These departments may include dispatch, MNX, loads, your fleet, etc. If your event concerns an ATC facility, one of our ATC specialists will forward a request to investigate your event.


WHAT IF I SUBMIT AN ASAP AND THE OTHER CREWMEMBER(S) CHOOSE NOT TO SUBMIT A REPORT?
If you want to submit a report and other crewmembers do not; let them know that you are going to report!
<Top>

WHAT HAPPENS IF THE FAA FILES A DEVIATION AGAINST THE CREW?
The FAA ERT member receives daily updates on events across the US ATC system. Their updates include “Pilot Deviations”. At the regular ERT meeting, the FAA member will notify the ERT if any deviations have been filed. The ERT will then search existing reports to determine if the crew has reported the event. If no reports exist, the ERT will check the ASAP Hotline to determine if a crewmember has called. If not, a member of the ERT, either AA or APA will call the crew and offer them the opportunity to submit a report. If the crew has already reported no additional contact will be made by the ERT until the “Deviation Package” arrives from the local Flight Standards District Office (FSDO). The deviation package will consist of controller statements, an audiotape, and if an airborne event, a computer generated radar plot. The ERT will review the deviation package to determine if “sufficient evidence” exists. If it does, the ERT will schedule the crew for an interview. The time from the occurrence of the event (deviation) until the crew interview is dependent on two variables: how long it takes the FSDO to forward the package to the ERT and (2) scheduling the crew. The ERT strives to interview all crewmembers on the same day. On rare occasions because of schedule conflicts, crewmembers are scheduled on different days.

OK, lets go back to the crew or crewmember that did not initially report. Who makes the determination if their report is accepted into the program? After the deviation package is received, read and listened to, the ERT will make its determination whether or not the crewmember(s) will be included into ASAP. The basic question asked by the ERT is: “Should the crewmember have known the potential for filing of a deviation by the FAA existed?” If the report is included, then the process continues and the crewmember will be scheduled for an interview. If the crewmember is excluded, then the standard FAA investigation process will begin. Since the inception of the program, less than 50 reports have been excluded where possible FAA action was pending.


WHAT ARE THE OUTCOMES?
WHAT PROCESS DOES THE ERT USE TO EVALUATE MY REPORT?
The ERT uses the flowchart below to determine how each report will be acted upon and closed out with a response to the reporting crewmember and proposed corrective action, if required.
(click here to view the flowchart)

AN ELECTRONIC RESPONSE

An “Electronic Response” (ER) from the ERT is the most typical response sent to crewmembers. If you filed an ASAP concerning an altitude deviation and no violation was filed, then the ERT’s response via an HI6 would indicate no violation was filed and would address the causal factors in your report.


AN FAA LETTER OF NO ACTION

An “FAA Letter of No Action” is sent to a crewmember when “Investigation reveals independent (but not sufficient) evidence of the violation” (see flow chart).
Examples of events that historically have generated an LNA are: departing stations with open write-ups, without the logbook or not insuring provisions of the MEL are implemented. An LNA is sent from the FAA via regular mail to the crewmember. This letter officially closes out the event. If, in the future, the FAA re-opens an investigation for a closed-out event, no additional action will be taken against the crewmember.

Example: You have departed SAN on an origination flight. Enroute to DFW. You discover an open write-up that was written up by the previous crew the day prior and not signed off by Mnx. You notify DFW Mnx of the open item. The next question you may ask is: Should I submit an ASAP and is it a “Sole Source”? Remember that ASAP is a voluntary program, so the decision rests with the crewmember.

If you submit an ASAP and your report (remember each crewmember should submit) is the only knowledge the ERT has of the event, then it is a sole source. The next question the ERT asks is: “Does independent evidence exist?” Yes it does because the logbook will reflect the open item was not signed off in SAN.

At TULE, the FAA reviews aircraft logbooks on a continual basis and has initiated action against crewmembers and mechanics where correct logbook procedures were not followed. So, if you submit a report you may receive an LNA. As far as the FAA’s concerned that’s the end of their involvement and you can continue about your business. If you choose not to submit you’re taking your chances that the FAA won’t review that logbook (good luck!). Why risk it?


AN FAA LETTER OF CORRECTION (LOC)
An FAA “Letter of Correction” (LOC) may be appropriate when an event is non- sole source. That means there is independent knowledge of the event (other than that gained through the crewmember’s report). From the chart; “Is there enough evidence to support the finding of a violation with this individual?” A Letter of Correction will only be issued after the ERT has had the opportunity to interview the crewmembers. As the term implies an LOC will always involve corrective action based on the event. It may be that attending the interview is sufficient corrective action, or some additional training may also be warranted. If simulator time is an option, you will be advised prior to departing your home base so you can plan accordingly.

 

[Alamanach]

If he files a report to the ASRS, he will be falsly accusing himself of a deviation he did not make.

How could this be? You said that an ASRS report can be submitted in cases that do not involve pilot error. It should follow, I would think, that submission of an ASRS does not inherently imply guilt on the part of the reporting pilot. So wouldn't any "accusation" depend entirely on what Almerick07 put in his report?

Let me ask this, it might clear up my confusion: is the ASRS report a safety reporting tool, or an instrument for helping to establish guilt or innocence?

 

[The_Russian]

It is a safety reporting tool.

 

[Alamanach]

It is a safety reporting tool.

So it's about safety rather than blame. Makes sense: it wouldn't be effective if it tried to be about both. But then why are we worried about who committed what deviation?

The reason as to why he should not file an ASRS report is based on the fact that he did not violate the sanctity of Class B airspace. The deviator was another pilot. If he files a report to the ASRS, he will be falsly accusing himself of a deviation he did not make.

Obviously, it will be important for Almerick07 to be accurate in his report; he shouldn't state that he busted Class B when he didn't. But that kind of inaccuracy would be ridiculous. So I don't see why the concerns you raise here are relevant.

Now, it seems to me that there was a genuine safety concern, in that ATC couldn't keep track of which plane was which. Based on what you've said-- that the ASRS reports are for safety issues, that a pilot can submit one whether he made an error or not, that this is a safety reoprting tool, and that it is not a "get out of jail free" card-- I would think an ASRS report would be appropriate.

You say it's not appropriate, but I can't see how you come to that conclusion in light of the other things you've said.

 

[JimNtexas]

Everybody here needs to read some Phillip Kolczynski. He is a pretty big shot aviation lawyer in California. Here's a link to his article Protecting Yourself Against FAA Enforcement Actions. Click --> http://www.aviationlawcorp.com/content/faasanction.html. Well ok, it doesn't work as a link; you'll have to cut and paste.

Ed, your link worked, and it is the best summary that I've seen.

The bottom line: It is never a bad idea to submit a NASA form except if you intentionally created an unsafe situation.

If the FAA suspends certificate action because you filed the form then you can't use another one for five years.

If you tell the FAA that you used the form and they don't elect to seek certificate action then its no harm, no foul, and you can use the form to avoid sanction for an even that happens the next day.

You should always report incidents where safety was an issue, even if the FAA has no idea the unsafe situation ever arose.

 

[AC560]

The bottom line: It is never a bad idea to submit a NASA form except if you intentionally created an unsafe situation.

Please explain why it would be a bad idea to submit the form if you intentionally created the unsafe situation. In specific how filing the form makes your situation worse then if you don't file it.

 

[JediNein]

Thanks AAFlyer! I last read AA's ASAP program briefing in early 1998 after an outstation incident, so I was going on old faded memory for that.

Two questions if you know the answers: Does the ASAP prevent, prohibit, or ignore ASRS reports for AA's program? Is there a limit to the number of ASAP reports a pilot can file before AA's 'train to proficiency' goes out the window?

 

[AV80R]

Do NOT listen to Russian I cannot believe he is asking you NOT to file!? Remember that you are always guilty until proven innocent – NASA form can only help NEVER hurt you!

Was your transponder on? If so, they’ll know if it was you or not. You think you were not guilty and you probably weren’t, HOWEVER, what if you are wrong? Maybe you were off by a mile or so? Sometimes it’s hard to tell from the cockpit but it's easy for them looking on the radar where different airspace borders are very clear.

In the WORST case scenario, IF they do find you guilty of some kind of violation a NASA form might be used in lie of the violation. Lets say they give you a 60 day suspension (which I seriously doubt in your case) if you have filed a NASA form your record will say “NASA form #... used in lie of a 60-day suspension” In other words you’ll keep your ticket. However, they don’t even have to know about the NASA form until you deem like you need it.

In my view, a NASA form can only help; it can NEVER be used to “identify you” etc. Russian gives you wrong information!

Btw, you only have 10 days after the incident to file it. Anyone telling you not to file is doing you a major disservice! I think nothing will happen in your case but you never know - please be smart and file!

“The one draw back to filing the NASA form is that it is a once in a life time get out of jail almost free card.”

Learwannabe – totally false! You can file 10 NASA forms a day, there’s NO limit to that. However, once a NASA form has been used (in other words you have been notified of a potential violation and are using the NASA form to waive any suspensions etc) you must wait 5 years before you can use a NASA form to defend your license again.

 

[midlifeflyer]

Please explain why it would be a bad idea to submit the form if you intentionally created the unsafe situation. In specific how filing the form makes your situation worse then if you don't file it.

Because he and the Russian say so.

That's all - personal opinion having nothing to do with the way the program works.

 

[AC560]

once a NASA form has been used (in other words you have been notified of a potential violation and are using the NASA form to waive any suspensions etc) you must wait 5 years before you can use a NASA form to defend your license again.

No, no, no. Use of the NASA form has nothing to do with it. Use it/don't use it. The only thing that matters is whether or not you have had a violation in the past five years.

It does not matter if you filled out a report, used a report, looked at a report, thought about a report, or did anything with the report, all that matters is:

1. the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
2. the violation did not involve a criminal offense, or accident. or action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
3. the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
4. the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA under ASRS. See paragraphs 5c and 7b.

Rather then continuing on with this I would suggest everyone go and read this. Far to many people that think they know what they are talking about as opposed to taking the time to reevaluate their thoughts to make sure they are right.

Whether you have a PPL or a ATP that piece of paper gives you the same opportunity, an opportunity to learn. Far to many people around here seem to think at some point they stop learning, these are usually the people who get a violation or worse yet kill themselves. Don't be one of those people.

 

[AAflyer]

Thanks AAFlyer! I last read AA's ASAP program briefing in early 1998 after an outstation incident, so I was going on old faded memory for that.

Two questions if you know the answers: Does the ASAP prevent, prohibit, or ignore ASRS reports for AA's program? Is there a limit to the number of ASAP reports a pilot can file before AA's 'train to proficiency' goes out the window?

Hi Jedi,

My undestanding is it prevents the ASRS report. (Will have to check). There is No limit on the number of ASAPs we can file. In fact in recurrent they stress if you are concerned at all file one. In the last year I filed 3.

One the cockpit door came open on TO, the locking soleniod failed.

I had a waypoint drop out on a flight from BDL to ORD.

Lastly a month ago flying to SFO, approach cleared American XXX to descend to FL210. !0 seconds later he asked UAL XXX what altitude he was at. He meant to send UAL down to 210 and leave us up a little longer. It was his mistake, he apologized and said not to worry about it. Well, we filed an ASAP anyway.


Regards,

AA

P.S. I would have filed the NASA form in the event that the thread is about.

P.S.S Rereading your question I am not sure about what type would end the train to proficiency. I am sure 3 ASAPS for landing early due to running out of gas would most likely negate the ASAP. It was never mentioned in the briefing. I would safely say that it is most likely based on the individual and the type of incident.

 

[avbug]

I believe that the pilot should not file the ASRS report due to the fact that he knows he was not the sought pilot. If he did not make a deviation due to safety, then he should not file. He knows, and explained to the controlling agency, that it was not him. If it truly was him, and he was sure about it. A filing of a ASRS report would be applicable due to an accidental deviation into class B.

Now, say he caused a major traffic deviation. The FAA could find criminal neglect on the pilot if the passengers on the deviating plane were injured in the manuever. And, the ASRS system will not be able to protect him. Of course, this is all hypothetical. But, it could happen.

If the FAA would like to press the issue further, he would recieve a letter of investigation with or without filing to the ASRS system. If the FAA can prove that the said pilot knew better, the FAA can seek certificate action under criminal charges.

On another note, his filing fill falsify the statistics. This would be due to a deviation filed that was not committed.

Every time you tap on that keyboard, somehow you just come out dumber and dumber. Okay, genius...

The FAA seeks certificate action under criminal charges?

You understand that FAA regulation, being part of the Code of Federal Regulations, is ADMINISTRATIVE LAW, not criminal law, right??? You had the FAA getting people fired before (which they gladly accepted rather than have their certificates suspended)...Now you've given them the authority of the judiciary, too.

Under very unusual circumstances criminal charges may be proferred (very rarely, such as in the proceedings from the loss of Valuejet against certain of Sabretechs employees)...but this has NOTHING to do with certificate action. Nothing. Nada. You undertstand and grasp this concept in some small way??

The ASRS isn't about statistics, or about deviations. It isn't. It's about safety. It can be for anything a reporting party--pilot or non-pilot--wants to report. Your assertion that the submitter is falsifying statistics is idiotic. You don't have a clue what you're talking about. Not a clue. Yet, you keep talking about it, and your rambling is starting to make you sound like one of the three dumbest posters I've seen here in years. Good grief...do a little research, get some semblence of a clue as to what you're saying before you keep posting this garbage.

If the original poster had been the subject of enforcement action and waited to file an ASRS report, then he could seek no protection under the program. He would have gone past the 10 day limit. Strike one for you, my boy.

If the original poster had been the subject of enforcement action and had filed the report, the FAA would have no way of knowing he had filed the report unless he elected to reveal it to them...as it's sanitized with all names and information removed before the FAA ever gets to see it. Strike two for you, mate.

If the original poster had been the subject of enforcement action and was given an administrative penalty, at that time he would have the option of producing the date and time-stamped title strip to the report, and claiming his privilege of waiving the penalty of the enforcement action...unless he listened to you, brightspark. Strike three.

 

[AAflyer]

Russian,

You have to be the first guy in all my GA years and airline flying years that promoted not filing an ASRS. I think you should read Avbugs response above.

I am little disappointed in that you are 121 airline captain dispensing bad information. If you are unsure it may be wise not to say anything.

Regards,

AAflyer

P.S. It appears the individual THINKS and almost 100% sure it was not him. When in doubt...Well many of us have explained that to you already. Maybe you should call the FSDO and see what they say.

 

[Almerick07]

Every time you tap on that keyboard, somehow you just come out dumber and dumber. Okay, genius...

Now that was funny

 

[JimNtexas]

Please explain why it would be a bad idea to submit the form if you intentionally created the unsafe situation. In specific how filing the form makes your situation worse then if you don't file it.

Well, I think that intentionally creating an unsafe situation is probably a crime, and you're not suppose to use the form to report crimes.

But on the other hand you won't get into trouble for anything you submit to NASA, they won't turn you in.

Let's suppose you are operating a jet plane using the callsign 'Ghost Rider'. You call JFK tower and ask to do a high speed tower fly-by.

JFK Tower replies "Negative Ghost Rider, the pattern is closed". But you go ahead and do the high speed pass anyway, intentionally creating an unsafe situation.

You decide to file a NASA report. On the description line, the line that the FAA does see, you write "Intentional disregard of ATC instruction".

You won't get in trouble for admiting to the fly by in the text of the NASA form. NASA won't burn you.

On the other hand, in this case you're probably not going to get out jail free, report or no report. But heck, give it try!

Now when the FAA calls you in demanding your butt you can slap the NASA tear off on the table and laugh at them, saying "here's my get out of jail card suckers!" and just start laughing at them. Good luck with that.

Kidding aside, one thing that I think has the Russian confused is that you do want to be careful about what you write on the tear off part of the NASA form, the part that you show to the FAA. It's better to not confess to a violation in the description at the top of the form. For example, if you are reporting an altitude bust you might consider putting "question about assigned altitude" rather than "leveled off at wrong altitude".

You'd really rather have no certificate action on your record rather than an action with punishment waived due to the NASA form. The FAA will see the tear off before they make the final decision to pursue formal certificate action. There is no point in turning in a written confession of a crime to them as part of this process.

If the FAA can convince the judge that the violation was intentional then you don't get out of jail free, and the NASA report just added gas to the fire.

ETA: Avbug is correct, it's very possible that your tower fly-by was a violation of blackletter federal law. If you break federal law then your friendly neighborhood U.S. District Attorney won't be impressed at all by your NASA form.