violation

[sqwkvfr]

If they wanted you bad enough, they would sent someone to meet you.

Is that right? Is someone from PHX approach gonna hop in a car to make the 25-30 minute drive to P19 AFTER they saw you drop off RADAR in the area in the hopes of finding you in the midst of all of the activity at the airport? Think, McFly, think.

The controllers in the area have told me many stories of airspace violators that got away scott free because they landed at Stellar.

Now, if you buzzed POTUS while he was in town, I'm certain that LEOs would be involved, and that's a different story.

Flyway or corridor? Which do they have? A corridor should keep you clear of Class B.

I was referring to a the flyways that you commonly find on the back of a TAC chart, not a corridor. PHX class B has no corridors, and the transition routes -including the new ones- require a clearance.

 

[Almerick07]

ive heard stories of aircraft just descending below south mountain or scud running on the southwest side of the estrellas and getting away with it....ill just send in a NASA report and avoid really pissing them off, they seemed pretty laid back when i talked to them.

 

[Way2Broke]

Fill it out, it can't hurt. Also, you should always keep AOPA's prepaid legal.

Name one thing negative that could come from filling it out, and then ask yourself what positives could come from it. That should make the decision pretty simple. And NASA reports are not JUST for violations. They are for any time you think something is unsafe. Well either you or someone else did something unsafe here.

 

[timeoff]

Uncontrolled airports have CTAF, tower, especially PHX tower can listen in. If you don't give position reports (downwind, final, etc), FAA will happily add to your charges.

Just curious, how would one get additional violations for not calling pattern legs at an uncontrolled field?

 

[JediNein]

The controllers in the area have told me many stories of airspace violators that got away scott free because they landed at Stellar.

The PHX Approach guys have shown me how they tag a violator and listen in on CTAF. I'm sure the guys that didn't get away aren't talking. Why risk a career or a suspension over it?

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Almerick07,

It seems like there are a few posts here that are not exactly correct.

1) If this ever goes further, you will not be the one who has to prove you were not in the Bravo. This is first and foremost and when it comes to talking to the FAA, don't admit anything other than you were flying that day. Kathy Yotis (sp?) at AOPA will tell you the same thing as that is what she told me.

2) The NASA form will help you as long as you do it before the FAA (inspectors) brings the situation to your attention and within the 10 day time frame.

3) The one draw back to filing the NASA form is that it is a once in a life time get out of jail almost free card. That doesn't mean you can't file another one. It just means that it will not protect you for a similar transgression. Land below minimums next time, fill out the report and it will help. Just remember the violation will still be there, just not the penalty. Oh, if nothing comes of it, then you can still file a NASA form for an airspace violation in the future. You only get to "use it once".

Now I would fill out the report ASAP. Don't admit to doing anything wrong. Just say you depart Kxxx at 13:00 headed north under the Bravo at all times and landed back at Kxxx at 13:30. In your report you could say that you must have been dangerously close to another aircraft as ATC confused you with another aircraft and thus why you are filing. On the slip in the remarks or whatever it is called, just put PHX Bravo airspace. The FAA can not get the report and the header will cover you for the incident. If you get a letter of investigation anytime soon, hire an attorney. This is easily beatable as long as you don't incriminate yourself. Even the controllers statement of "they must have confused you with another aircraft" could be admitted to help your case. Good luck feel free to PM with questions.

 

[The_Russian]

Agreed. I would have NEVER admitted that it could have possibly been me. If you know you didn't do it, stand by that. Do not fill out a NASA because you have absolutely nothing to self-disclose. If you recieve a letter of investigation, then seek legal council.

 

[JediNein]

Almerick07,

It seems like there are a few posts here that are not exactly correct.

And this trend continues. Nothing personal Lear WB, but NASA's ASRS Program seems to be one of the most misunderstood things out there. :uzi:

1) If this ever goes further, you will not be the one who has to prove you were not in the Bravo.

He already did admit he was flying that day. Make no mistake, the pilot is considered guilty until proven innocent. Although the FAA has some burden of proof, it is the pilot that has the burden to prove innocence.

2) The NASA form will help you as long as you do it before the FAA (snip) brings the situation to your attention

It's too late, the FAA is already aware of the situation. ATC is the FAA. But, ASRS doesn't care if the FAA Inspectors meet you when you land! You have TEN DAYS.

It just means that it will not protect you for a similar transgression.

False!

http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/immunity_nf.htm specifically:

9. ENFORCEMENT POLICY
The Administrator of the FAA will perform his/her responsibility under Title 49, United States Code, Subtitle VII, and enforce the statute and the FAR in a manner that will reduce or eliminate the possibility of, or recurrence of, aircraft accidents. The FAA enforcement procedures are set forth in Part 13 of the FAR (14 CFR Part 13) and FAA enforcement handbooks.
In determining the type and extent of the enforcement action to be taken in a particular case, the following factors are considered:
a. nature of the violation;
b.whether the violation was inadvertent or deliberate;
c. the certificate holder's level of experience and responsibility;
d. attitude of the violator;
e. the hazard to safety of others which should have been foreseen;
f. action taken by employer or other government authority;
g. length of time which has elapsed since violation;
h. the certificate holder's use of the certificate;
i. the need for special deterrent action in a particular regulatory area, or segment of the aviation community; and
j. presence of any factors involving national interest, such as the use of aircraft for criminal purposes.

The filing of a report with NASA concerning an incident or occurrence involving a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or the FAR is considered by FAA to be indicative of a constructive attitude. Such an attitude will tend to prevent future violations. Accordingly, although a finding of violation may be made, neither a civil penalty nor certificate suspension will be imposed if:
a. the violation was inadvertent and not deliberate;
b. the violation did not involve a criminal offense, or accident, or action under 49 U.S.C. Section 44709 which discloses a lack of qualification or competency, which is wholly excluded from this policy;
d. the person has not been found in any prior FAA enforcement action to have committed a violation of 49 U.S.C. Subtitle VII, or any regulation promulgated there for a period of 5 years prior to the date of occurrence; and
e. the person proves that, within 10 days after the violation, he or she completed and delivered or mailed a written report of the incident or occurrence to NASA under ASRS.

 

[sqwkvfr]

The PHX Approach guys have shown me how they tag a violator and listen in on CTAF. I'm sure the guys that didn't get away aren't talking. Why risk a career or a suspension over it?

Good God!! What in the hell is he/she risking if they've ALEADY violated airspace?!?!?

My question is: Why risk guaranteeing a violation by not trying it?

This is just something that I offered up based on conversations that I've had with controllers in the area, it's not "sqwkvfr's guaranteed get out of jail free method."

Get it?

Yeah, they COULD call an FBO, if there was an FBO at Stellar.

...or would you like to tell me more about how well Luke's RADAR can see through South Mountain and keep that violator tag on aircraft that are on the ground???? ...or how the FAA can violate you for not making calls in the pattern????

 

[Lear Wanna Be]

Hey Jedi,

Thanks for at least clarifying the last one. I did not realize that you could use a NASA form for the same thing after 5 years. Is this a recent change?

Otherwise, I disagree with you on the rest. As someone who had an episode with the FAA a few years back, I got some insight. First, if it is a question of where you were at, they have to prove that with radar data or eye witness reports. Review case law on the appeals and you will see how the NTSB Judges have ruled on that. Call Kathy Yodice at AOPA legal and she will confirm.

You are correct that ATC is the FAA just like FSS. However, if an inspector starts the investigation before you file, no luck. The rule is really meant to prevent people from taking advantage after getting a letter of investigation. Not like they would ever come within 10 days. Also, the FAA's council does not have to accept the NASA form. This would more than likely be overturned by the NTSB judge, but that is the way it is. Of course they do unless there are other circumstance that are listed above in the last part. However, deliberate is up for interpretation. Don't get a standard briefing and it can be considered deliberate through neglect. Believe me, I have been through all of this in a process that took over a year and end with my record being crystal clear. I had to go to the folks at duats.com to get records, but they provided them and the Presidential TFR violation went away.

The advice that I would take from this above all else, if you get a letter of investigation from the FAA, hire an attorney. Don't make any statements without one.

 

[avbug]

Don't worry about it. Don't fill out a NASA if you know you were in the right. It is only to be used to report actual deviations.

WRONG! Doworry about any potential violation. Even if you think you were right, because what you think and often what you know, is entirely irrelevant and unimportant. What someone else thinks...such as the person gathering evidence to use agaisnt you (can you say recorded telephone conversation with a FAA ATC supervisor??) which may later be processed for enforcement action.

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

Have you ever filled out a NASA before? It is not the same as an ASAP form. It can be used against you if the FAA decides to seek action.

WRONG! No, it can't. Only in the cases of intentional violation of the regulation or in cases involving criminal acts.

Yes. However, the NASA form, even in it's anonymity, can be used against a pilot. Especially if the controlling agency knows the name of the pilot and the registration of the aircraft.

WRONG! You need to learn a little more about the program. The FAA CANNOT use the information contained in the body of the report against you, though it can point them in the direction to look elsewhere...but not if they learn about the incident from the report. READ!!

The NASA form is to be used as a self-disclosure form for pilot error.

WRONG! It's a format for reporting and commenting on safety related issues without endangering one's self.

Yes, and that is for self-diclosed violations. In this case ATC accused this pilot of an error he did not make. Therefore, a NASA form would not be appropriate.

WRONG!!

If you have a NASA receipt certificate action stops.

Wrong. A lot of pilots think that, and it's not so. If you fit within all the parameters of the program, you will not pay the penalty, but in many cases, certificate action continues. You have a violation on your record, but you don't actually see your certificate suspended.

Do not fill out a NASA because you have absolutely nothing to self-disclose.

Wrong. Very bad advice based on a grave misunderstanding of a program that was never about self-disclosure or hiding pilots from penalties. It's a safety program that protects you from injury in reporting safety related issues.

 

[pilotyip]

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

 

[midlifeflyer]

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

Thank you (and Jedi) for mentioning this.

The program has managed to come to be viewed by pilots as an "it's all about ME" program, so the discussion devolves to "well if I didn't do anything wrong, I shouldn't file." Yes, the program's protected status may save your ass, but it's purpose is to save everyone's ass by accumulating data that might lead to better safety practices.

Heck, the OP is describing an event in which ATC misidentified an aircraft it was tracking. ATC errors are as much a concern of the safety program as pilot deviations.

 

[The_Russian]

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

Agreed.

 

[The_Russian]

Quotes from Avbug

WRONG! Doworry about any potential violation. Even if you think you were right, because what you think and often what you know, is entirely irrelevant and unimportant. What someone else thinks...such as the person gathering evidence to use agaisnt you (can you say recorded telephone conversation with a FAA ATC supervisor??) which may later be processed for enforcement action.

Yes, worry about it. If you did nothing wrong why would you fill out a NASA form? I think we kinda agree here. And, if the ATC agency is seeking a violation then legal council should be used, not a NASA form.

The ASRS program was never intended to be a forum for reporting deviations. It was intended to be a place to report safety related information that may be used to help others. It's a protected program to ensure the integrity and sanctity of the program. It's not designed to save your ass.

It wasn't. But, it has become a way for the FAA to study the statistics of pilot error. They can find where a lot of pilots make mistakes, and re-tailor the airspace. Or, they can change navigation to make things safer. I agree that it is not designed to "save your ass".

WRONG! No, it can't. Only in the cases of intentional violation of the regulation or in cases involving criminal acts.

How can this pilot prove that he did not intentionally violate airspace? How can this pilot prove what he did was not civil or criminal neglect? What if a transport category aircraft had an RA because of him? Does filling out this form make him innocent? No, it does not. The FAA will and cannot take action for SAFETY related issues. However, if it is a pilot deviation that is self-disclosed on the form, they CAN take action.

WRONG! You need to learn a little more about the program. The FAA CANNOT use the information contained in the body of the report against you, though it can point them in the direction to look elsewhere...but not if they learn about the incident from the report. READ!!

Two people I know almost lost their certificates because they took off on the wrong runway in a transport category aircraft. It was an uncontrolled field at 5am. They self-diclosed on a NASA, they got busted. The FAA found their error as criminal neglect. Luckily, the union only let the FAA take their jobs away.

WRONG! It's a format for reporting and commenting on safety related issues without endangering one's self.

Agreed, and originally yes. It's use has changed a bit. The ASRS program using the NASA form is for safety related issues and pilot self-disclosure of safety related issues involving pilot error.

 

[The_Russian]

Avbug,

Even though we have different perspectives on the program, we both agree that he has no reason to fill out the form.

 

[The_Russian]

Is he saying "stop the catbox"?

 

[JediNein]

Obviously facts have no bearing on opinions. But, for the last time. . .

I've watched an FAA Inspector stand on a roof of an airport building, not at Stellar, elsewhere, with a handheld and binocs calmly taking down N-Numbers. You can try all sorts of stuff to get out of a violation. Go for it, but be sure you don't cross the line between inadvertent and deliberate. Trying to hide it after the fact really irritates the inspectors and they are much more likely to pursue the maximum penalty versus counseling, letter of warning/correction, or remedial training.

File an ASRS anyways.

It's free, if you need the report slip you have it, and it doesn't matter when the FAA becomes aware of the violation. The rule is 10 days.

For others that have posted, so a pilot should take a 30 day suspension somewhere within 1-3 years down the road, so that 1-5 years down the road, if something else were to happen, they would be able to use an ASRS then?

That's just nuts. Most pilots do not have ANY sort of violation after the first.

There are a few pilots that find themselves constantly breaking rules, and ASRS won't help them as their attitude and disregard for regulations prove they don't need to be a pilot.

AOPA Legal does not rank high in my experience. They tend to seek the fastest, cheapest way out, which is fine for the average private pilot. If you want a career in this industry, the fastest, cheapest way out may have you interviewing with a suspension on your record. Sure it can be overcome, but if you were innocent, you'll have to lie about how you 'deserved' the violation and won't ever do it again.

But don't take my word for it. Go do the research yourself. Read the NTSB Orders and Opinions and see just how many had the full NTSB Board decide in favor of the FAA. See how many decided the pilot's certificates should be REVOKED, but for the timely filing of a ASRS report, the sentence was commuted.

 

[AC560]

Wrong. A lot of pilots think that, and it's not so. If you fit within all the parameters of the program, you will not pay the penalty, but in many cases, certificate action continues. You have a violation on your record, but you don't actually see your certificate suspended.

Sorry if my point was unclear, I meant to convey that you wouldn't receive a suspension of privileges.

Very bad advice based on a grave misunderstanding of a program that was never about self-disclosure or hiding pilots from penalties.

What is intended and what is are often two different things.

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

I don't believe this is correct. You will not gain protection from a NASA report if you have had a violation in the last 5yrs (whether you filed a report or not). Thus if you choose not to file a report in this incident not only will you not have the protection provided by the program but you will be unable to gain protection from it for five more years.

Could be wrong on this but from rereading some stuff it seems to only indication a violation, if you have something different would like to read it.

 

[The_Russian]

I've watched an FAA Inspector stand on a roof of an airport building, not at Stellar, elsewhere, with a handheld and binocs calmly taking down N-Numbers. You can try all sorts of stuff to get out of a violation. Go for it, but be sure you don't cross the line between inadvertent and deliberate. Trying to hide it after the fact really irritates the inspectors and they are much more likely to pursue the maximum penalty versus counseling, letter of warning/correction, or remedial training.

Right on.