violation

[EdAtTheAirport]

FILE A NASA REPORT! It's just a legal power play that's free. You don't have to admit any wrongdoing - especially if there was none. It's a legal shield just in case, somehow, they can show that you in fact did violate the Bravo.

Russian you are giving bad advice! You are plain wrong on most of what you're saying and trying to cover your lack of knowledge with volume of text. It's irritating!

I'm sure that these two pilots who took off on the "wrong" runway at an uncontrolled field (whatever that means) were sourced by something other than their NASA report. If they "almost" lost their licenses (whatever that means), I bet their NASA report helped to prevent it.

FILE THE NASA REPORT!

 

[time builder]

Two people I know almost lost their certificates because they took off on the wrong runway in a transport category aircraft. It was an uncontrolled field at 5am. They self-diclosed on a NASA, they got busted. The FAA found their error as criminal neglect. Luckily, the union only let the FAA take their jobs away.

This sounds interesting. What made it the "wrong runway" at an uncontrolled airport? Was the runway closed?

 

[Almerick07]

the NASA report has been filed, I made it very clear I was the suspect of an airspace violation and quoted phrases the ATC supervisor said and all. I stated my flight path and that the ATC supervisor confirmed my flight path did not cross through the bravo. I also said I was in contact with scottsdale tower and falcon field during my entire flight. I made no statement that it was me or could have been me. I think ive covered myself from getting a suspension IF they do investigate it. If I get a letter in the mail you can bet my first call will be to an aviation lawyer, thats the advice ive gotten from an FAA inspector and he also said to not say a word...not even that you were flying. He said if it gets to the point where they want to investigate it they have already found you guilty and nothing you say will help. Im really not all that worried about it, BUT if something does happen ive got a number to a distinguished aviation lawyer in my back pocket.

 

[The_Russian]

FILE A NASA REPORT! It's just a legal power play that's free. You don't have to admit any wrongdoing - especially if there was none. It's a legal shield just in case, somehow, they can show that you in fact did violate the Bravo.

Russian you are giving bad advice! You are plain wrong on most of what you're saying and trying to cover your lack of knowledge with volume of text. It's irritating!

I'm sure that these two pilots who took off on the "wrong" runway at an uncontrolled field (whatever that means) were sourced by something other than their NASA report. If they "almost" lost their licenses (whatever that means), I bet their NASA report helped to prevent it.

FILE THE NASA REPORT!

No, I am not. The NASA report is not a "get out of jail free card". It should only be used when self-disclosing for safety reasons. Or, like avbug said, for safety issues. You are giving bad advice for insisting that the ASRS system provides a legal shield.

In the world of scheduled ops, the wrong runway at an uncontrolled field would be the one that the aircraft cannot use. For example, if the runway is too short or there is an obstacle at the end of the runway or in the climb segment. Direction on that runway would be determined by wind. The error in runway was self-disclosed through the ASRS system via a NASA report.

The FAA threatened to revoke both of the crew's certificates. However, ALPA was able to convince the FAA to change the punishment to a termination.

You need to study some aviation law.

 

[The_Russian]

This sounds interesting. What made it the "wrong runway" at an uncontrolled airport? Was the runway closed?

See above.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Russian, you wouldn't earn a dime as a defense attorney. The FAA might say that it should only be used for self-disclosure or safety reasons, but anyone with an ounce of knowledge of law would say that a Report should be filed anytime that you feel you may be in a legal predicament with the FAA. In many instances a NASA report stops even the investigation, since the fed sees that the end result of his/her work will be a "pass" since the accused violator is protected by the Report. There are rare instances (covered by regulation) in which a NASA Report is not to the pilot's advantage. It's that simple, Mr. Supposed AvLaw!

I had hoped that since you brought up the story of the pilots who "almost lost their licenses," that you would provide the specifics of exactly what they did. Instead you have returned a list of theoretical examples of what "might" be considered the wrong runway at an uncontrolled airport. Duhhhh. We can do that, too!

I'm calling BS. Tell us the real story or shut up. Many of us are anxiously awaiting your scheduled-ops-law-expert leadership.

My advice to the PHX Class B alleged violator stands: FILE THE REPORT!

 

[midlifeflyer]

Russian, you wouldn't earn a dime as a defense attorney. The FAA might say that it should only be used for self-disclosure or safety reasons, but anyone with an ounce of knowledge of law would say that a Report should be filed anytime that you feel you may be in a legal predicament with the FAA. In many instances a NASA report stops even the investigation, since the fed sees that the end result of his/her work will be a "pass" since the accused violator is protected by the Report.

Not necessarily. Depending on the circumstances, the FAA may want the certificate action on record even if the penalty is stopped by the report - so that in the event of a later violation within 5 years the "NASA Defense" would be unavailable. It's for this reason that one of the strategies of defense lawyers is to not mention the report during the earliest stages - better to work out a favorable deal that avoids the certificate action altogether, avoid the application of the 5-year rule in the future, and save the "NASA Defense" for another day.

 

[The_Russian]

Russian, you wouldn't earn a dime as a defense attorney. The FAA might say that it should only be used for self-disclosure or safety reasons, but anyone with an ounce of knowledge of law would say that a Report should be filed anytime that you feel you may be in a legal predicament with the FAA. In many instances a NASA report stops even the investigation, since the fed sees that the end result of his/her work will be a "pass" since the accused violator is protected by the Report. There are rare instances (covered by regulation) in which a NASA Report is not to the pilot's advantage. It's that simple, Mr. Supposed AvLaw!

Have you not read anyone elses posts? The NASA report is NOT a get out of jail free card. You can only self-diclose pilot error when it is caused by a safety related error. I think many of us said that in many different ways.

I had hoped that since you brought up the story of the pilots who "almost lost their licenses," that you would provide the specifics of exactly what they did. Instead you have returned a list of theoretical examples of what "might" be considered the wrong runway at an uncontrolled airport. Duhhhh. We can do that, too!
I'm calling BS. Tell us the real story or shut up. Many of us are anxiously awaiting your scheduled-ops-law-expert leadership.

How old are you? Have you ever flown 121? I think I explained clearly what the issue was. The runway was much too short for the aircraft. These guys almost ended up like Comair 191. Are you going to point fingers, or bring some facts to the table?

My advice to the PHX Class B alleged violator stands: FILE THE REPORT!

He has nothing to file if he has done no wrong. If he was going to be issed a letter of intent to investigate, then he would need a lawyer with or without filing.

 

[avbug]

Hopefully those reading the extremely misguided musings of the russian high command will understand that what he's posting is WRONG, dangerous to your certificate, and either flame-bait or a gross misunderstanding of a very simple program. Let's try again...

Even though we have different perspectives on the program, we both agree that he has no reason to fill out the form.

Ah, no. I said and insist that he has every reason to fill out the form, and there is no reason why he should not fill out the form. Most definitely he should (and did) fill out the ASRS report.

I made it very clear I was the suspect of an airspace violation and quoted phrases the ATC supervisor said and all. I stated my flight path and that the ATC supervisor confirmed my flight path did not cross through the bravo. I also said I was in contact with scottsdale tower and falcon field during my entire flight. I made no statement that it was me or could have been me. I think ive covered myself from getting a suspension IF they do investigate it.

Let's stop right there for a minute. What you put in the report is irrelevant. You're not writing your defense. You're not "self-disclosing." You're writing a safety report. You can do so, even though what you have done is a violation of the regulation, becasue nothing in the report can be used against you unless it was a criminal act or an intentional violation of the regulation.

In the full history of the ASRS program, there has NEVER been a breach of trust or a violation of the program policies. The FAA has NEVER used material gained from a report against a pilot when the pilot stayed with in the program guidelines. The subject material of the report cannot be used against you.

Consequently, there is no reason to launch your defense campaign in the body of the report. Simply state what happened. You don't need to document who said what or prove your case. Siimply outline the event, make any recommendations (such as next time you'll be flying lower, or n contact with ATC, or...put something in there becuse reporting a safety issue is worthless unless you can offer something toward a soloution to prevent it from happening again)

Whether you were guilty or not guilty or any violation is entirely irrelevant here. One does not need to be guilty of a violation to have a reason to file a ASRS report. NASA follows up on these reports...they'll contact control towers, ATC...they'll address safety issues without dragging you into it, and they will not breach your confidence. It has NEVER happened.

Two people I know almost lost their certificates because they took off on the wrong runway in a transport category aircraft. It was an uncontrolled field at 5am. They self-diclosed on a NASA, they got busted. The FAA found their error as criminal neglect. Luckily, the union only let the FAA take their jobs away.

Y

ou're aware this is the ASRS program not the NASA program, right? This is not the ASAP program, either. Never has there been a breach of confidence in the ASRS program. You state otherwise; provide the citations to show your case, or stop bantying around these false allegations. You insinuate that the FAA learned of the violations of certain aviators from their ASRS report, and subsequently used the information contained in the report to press for enorcement action agaist the pilots. False and wildly far fetched...cite the case the references to the disposition of the case, if you can. I seriously doubt you can...and if you do, you'll quickly find that you have the facts wrong.

You also assert that the FAA took the pilots jobs. The FAA doesn't do that. You assert that the pilots only lost their jobs, which the FAA took from them, rather than suffer loss of their certificate or a suspension? You must be joking.

However, if it is a pilot deviation that is self-disclosed on the form, they CAN take action.

You keep waving about this false assertion to support your misunderstanding of the program, when there has never been such a case in the history of the program. Ever.

 

[avbug]

Don't fill out the NASA report, you did nothing wrong. NASA will find no error on your part to put into a data base from your report. If for some strange reason your NASA report is used to protect your certificate, you can not use the NASA get out of jail card for another 5 years. Save NASA for something bigger.

NASA does not need, nor look for an error on the part of a reporting party to include an ASRS report in the ASRS database. All reports go in the database. Again, the ASRS program is not designed for reporting errors. It's designed for safety related issues. If you have been involved in a situation in which you may face legal consequences, then you are protected from prosecution based on the report, in order to encourage you to freely donate your story to the database. That's the promise of NASA in the ASRS program.

The other half of the pledge comes from the FAA, which offers as a gift to also encourage you to contribute, the waiving of any sanction arising out of enforcement related to the incident written in the report. This is a side benifit designed to protect the reporter, and encourage honesty in reporting. Accordingly, there is no requirement to be guilty or not guilty of an enforceable action when writing a safety report. I've written them myself when finding a safety issue at an airport, over errors found on aeronautical charts or proceedures, and multiple other reasons for which I had no stake but to contribue to safety. That's what the program is for.

If I commit an error, however, the program encourages me to speak up, to add my experience to the pile, by promising not to beat me up for it. Individually, the FAA promises (and has never broken that promise) not to use the report against me. That's the way it works, and it is ironclad.

Pilots should forward reports frequently. The program depends on it. For the pilot who is itnerested in the legal benifits of contributing to the program, then making frequent contributions any time anything could have the slightest hint of any legal ramifications is only in the best interests of the pilot. The pilot should contribute often.

The FAA has no way of knowing who contributed the report. The report is inspected and sanitized. Names, numbers and other data which might identify the reporter or others, is removed, before the report is added to the database. If the FAA reads the report, the FAA has no way of knowing who wrote it or who is involved. The only identification associated with the report is the identity strip, which is date and time stamped and returned to the submitter.

This identity strip is very important, because it is NOT protected by the program. If the person submitting the report admits to a violation in the title line of the identity strip, this CAN and HAS been used against the pilot...becuase iit is not part of the body of the report and is not protected. The FAA cannot use the report against the pilot, and cannot proceed with enforcement action based on something learned from the report. If the FAA has other evidence and learns of the incident from other than the report (including the title/identity strip), then the FAA CAN proceed with enforcement action.

If enforcement action is sought, the FAA can proceed right through applying any penalty, which will go on the record of the airman. To encourage the open participation in the program the FAA has offered the golden bullet to which many here have alluded...you'll still have a suspension or revocation on your record...but your certificate won't actually get suspended or revoked. It's an administrative exercise...you get to keep your certificate and keep on working, even though the paperwork says you've been suspended. That's the magic of the program, and that's the legal protection of the program.

So let's say the original poster does apply under the program. He submits his form, and in a month, receives a Letter of Investigation and is invited to a formal conference with the FAA. At that time, he may or may not elect to show the title strip associated with the incident. He may keep it confidential. Let's say it goes as far as a 90 day suspension. He doesn't have to reveal the report if he doesn't want to. The FAA won't know about the report unless he tells them. So he waits.

Lo and behold! The FAA opts for enforcement action. He now has a choice. He can reveal the report, prove that it was sent within ten days, and accept the suspension but keep his certificate and keep flying...or he can keep the report confidential, and fight the enforcement action. His choice. If he doesn't use the report to protect his certificate, then it doesn't compromise him for years to come. In fact, he can use another report to defend himself tomorrow. or the next day, or the next, if he likes. As much as he likes. There is NOTHING about sending in the report which prevents him from using another report later, the next day, three months from now, or a year later. Nothing.

Have you not read anyone elses posts? The NASA report is NOT a get out of jail free card. You can only self-diclose pilot error when it is caused by a safety related error. I think many of us said that in many different ways.

No, just you, and you keep saying it wrong. Again, it's an ASRS report, not a "NASA" report. You can report for all kinds of reasons, but the bottom line is tha that the report is there to contribute to safety across the board. The report will protect you from paying the penalty, but not against the administrative action associated with the penalty.

[FONT=&quot]You are giving bad advice for insisting that the ASRS system provides a legal shield.
[/FONT]

Actually it does, within the clearly defined parameters set forth by the program, with respect to the penalties to be imposed by the FAA, and against prosecution based on the contents of the body of the report.


File the report. Stick to the facts, don't treat it like a soapbox and a legal defense. It's there to report safety related issues, and if you believe your situation may be safety related, report it...only you can decide if it's truly safety related...and at a minimum, reporting protects you from penalties that may be imposed by the FAA associated with the incident about which you report.

With respect to an attorney, waiting until a LOI (letter of investigation) is received is not the correct timing to seek consultation. Get on a legal plan, and consult an attorney right off the bat. It may be the cheapest money you spend.

 

[The_Russian]

You're aware this is the ASRS program not the NASA program, right? This is not the ASAP program, either. Never has there been a breach of confidence in the ASRS program. You state otherwise; provide the citations to show your case, or stop bantying around these false allegations.

Ok, so which one did he file. I am pretty sure it says NASA report:

already sent in a NASA report and explained that I was only questioned as being an airspace violator and that it could have POSSIBLY been me but I did not believe it was.

He should not have self-diclosed anything if he did nothing wrong.

You insinuate that the FAA learned of the violations of certain aviators from their ASRS report, and subsequently used the information contained in the report to press for enorcement action agaist the pilots. False and wildly far fetched...cite the case the references to the disposition of the case, if you can. I seriously doubt you can...and if you do, you'll quickly find that you have the facts wrong.

You also assert that the FAA took the pilots jobs. The FAA doesn't do that. You assert that the pilots only lost their jobs, which the FAA took from them, rather than suffer loss of their certificate or a suspension? You must be joking.

You know as well as I do that it is against the forum rules to post names. Therefore, I am not going to give specifics. I will not be the one to cause harm to these pilots careers any further. What happened, has happened. Read the darn reg. It says:
any enforcement action except information concerning accidents or criminal offenses which are wholly excluded from the Program.

If the FAA finds criminal intent, they can take certificate action. Thats what they did to these two pilots. Even though their error was a mistake.

The FAA never took the pilot's jobs. The company did. The FAA wanted to revoke their certificates. It was a bagan between the union/company and the FAA.

You keep waving about this false assertion to support your misunderstanding of the program, when there has never been such a case in the history of the program. Ever.

Where is your proof of that? You want me to "prove it", you prove it!

 

[The_Russian]

NASA does not need, nor look for an error on the part of a reporting party to include an ASRS report in the ASRS database. All reports go in the database. Again, the ASRS program is not designed for reporting errors. It's designed for safety related issues.

So...........why should he file an ASRS report? He never made an error. He said it himself.

If you have been involved in a situation in which you may face legal consequences, then you are protected from prosecution based on the report, in order to encourage you to freely donate your story to the database. That's the promise of NASA in the ASRS program.

What about an error that risks 110 people on an airliner's lives? Criminal charges can take that "protection" away very quickly.

The other half of the pledge comes from the FAA, which offers as a gift to also encourage you to contribute, the waiving of any sanction arising out of enforcement related to the incident written in the report. This is a side benifit designed to protect the reporter, and encourage honesty in reporting. Accordingly, there is no requirement to be guilty or not guilty of an enforceable action when writing a safety report. I've written them myself when finding a safety issue at an airport, over errors found on aeronautical charts or proceedures, and multiple other reasons for which I had no stake but to contribue to safety. That's what the program is for.

Agreed. It is not for pilot error. It is for safety related issues, much like a safety hotline.

If I commit an error, however, the program encourages me to speak up, to add my experience to the pile, by promising not to beat me up for it. Individually, the FAA promises (and has never broken that promise) not to use the report against me. That's the way it works, and it is ironclad.

Once again, prove it. And, tell me they cannot charge you criminally for the wrong mistake. If they can prove that you knew better than to make the mistake, YOU WILL HAVE CERTIFICATE ACTION TAKEN AGAINST YOU!

No, just you, and you keep saying it wrong. Again, it's an ASRS report, not a "NASA" report. You can report for all kinds of reasons, but the bottom line is tha that the report is there to contribute to safety across the board. The report will protect you from paying the penalty, but not against the administrative action associated with the penalty.

Same program, different ways to refer to it.

Actually it does, within the clearly defined parameters set forth by the program, with respect to the penalties to be imposed by the FAA, and against prosecution based on the contents of the body of the report.


File the report. Stick to the facts, don't treat it like a soapbox and a legal defense. It's there to report safety related issues, and if you believe your situation may be safety related, report it...only you can decide if it's truly safety related...and at a minimum, reporting protects you from penalties that may be imposed by the FAA associated with the incident about which you report.

With respect to an attorney, waiting until a LOI (letter of investigation) is received is not the correct timing to seek consultation. Get on a legal plan, and consult an attorney right off the bat. It may be the cheapest money you spend.

Agreed. If it is not used for pilot-error that was not caused by a safety related issue. If it was purely pilot error, you risk a possible LOI.

I still stand by the fact that he should not have filed the ASRS report to NASA. If he knows that he did not make a mistake related to a safety issue, then he should not file.

 

[GenericPilot]

Call AOPA or an aviation attorney

Call an expert. Spend a few bucks and get the proper answers from an "expert" instead of from a bunch of strangers on a free message board. It's your license and your record. Good Luck.

 

[EdAtTheAirport]

Russian, you are so out-whitted here that it's amazing you keep fighting.

You have asked AVBUG, twice, to prove things in the negative. Not only don't you know Law, but it's a basic tenet of debate that no one can prove a negative.

You have also diverted the subject to whether or not "PHX Class B" should hire a lawyer. That was not the question. The issue is whether he should file a NASA Report. The answer is quite clearly, "YES."

Why is it that you can't say, among you brother aviators, that you are wrong? Is it because you are flying 121 (and yes I have too) that you think that the job you are fortunate to have makes you some sort of intellectual?

You are a bullheaded individual who can't see that you're wrong; that's unprofessional even in a Cessna 150!

Let me give you some advice. One of the the greatest skills in our business is the ability to say (and to know): "Maybe I am wrong." Regardless of how you may have gotten past HR at your interview, your inability to do that has been exposed in this discussion. You must/will be a horrible Captain to fly with by sticking to your point-of-view amidst overwhelming opinion against you. I would have so much respect for you if you just said those words!

Most professionals on this Board know when we know what we're talking about, versus when we're rendering an opinion. We speak up; we listen for feedback; we acknowledge good point, and apologize when necessary. It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

 

[fromunda]

It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

Didn't you know......Russian is our resident Gulfstream PFT whore. I guess that is what happens when you PAY for your job.

Ask her, she will openly admit it.

 

[JediNein]

Wow. When I was interested in flying a Gulfstream II, all I had to do was sleep with the Captain, no payment required. I think that offer is still open to any decent-looking female.

 

[siucavflight]

Fill out the form, if nothing happens it wont matter, but if they do decide to persue it you will glad you did.

 

[AC560]

If he doesn't use the report to protect his certificate, then it doesn't compromise him for years to come.

I am still unclear on this.

"[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]The waiver of penalties is subject to the following limitations: (A) the alleged violation must be inadvertent and not deliberate, (B) it must not reveal an event subject to Section 609 of the Federal Aviation Act, (C) the reporter must not have been found guilty of a violation of the FAR's or the Federal Aviation Act during the preceding five years, and (D) the ASRS report must be submitted within 10 days of the event."

Where is everyone getting that using the report to protect the certificate is limited to every five years?
[/FONT]

 

[The_Russian]

Russian, you are so out-whitted here that it's amazing you keep fighting.

And what have you brought to the conversation besides the pointing of a finger?

You have asked AVBUG, twice, to prove things in the negative. Not only don't you know Law, but it's a basic tenet of debate that no one can prove a negative.

He absolutely can. Why can't Avbug find a press release of something from the FAA to prove his point? Something saying: "We have never sought certificate action on any pilot, etc. for filing an ASRS report through NASA." I know first hand that two people I know had certificate action taken upon them for filing a report in the ASRS system for an inadvertent mistake.

You have also diverted the subject to whether or not "PHX Class B" should hire a lawyer. That was not the question. The issue is whether he should file a NASA Report. The answer is quite clearly, "YES."

I most certainly have not. I stand by my statement that he should not file a NASA report.

Why is it that you can't say, among you brother aviators, that you are wrong? Is it because you are flying 121 (and yes I have too) that you think that the job you are fortunate to have makes you some sort of intellectual?

Absolutely not. I admit when I make a mistake. You just don't like it that I do not believe that other on here are correct.

You are a bullheaded individual who can't see that you're wrong; that's unprofessional even in a Cessna 150!

Don't question my professionalism. YOu have no right to judge my character from a few argumentative posts.

Let me give you some advice. One of the the greatest skills in our business is the ability to say (and to know): "Maybe I am wrong." Regardless of how you may have gotten past HR at your interview, your inability to do that has been exposed in this discussion. You must/will be a horrible Captain to fly with by sticking to your point-of-view amidst overwhelming opinion against you. I would have so much respect for you if you just said those words!

I do not need your advice. Lose the tone. You have no idea what it is like to share a cockpit with me. You cannot even speculate what it is like to fly with me from an internet message board. I do not need your respect, nor do I desire it after your words about me.

Most professionals on this Board know when we know what we're talking about, versus when we're rendering an opinion. We speak up; we listen for feedback; we acknowledge good point, and apologize when necessary. It appears that you slipped through the cracks, and got a 121 job without learning the basics!

Slipped through the cracks? Are you kidding me? You know nothing about me to judge me in such a way.

--------------------------------------------------------------------

Lastly,

Keep in mind that you have brought nothing positive to the conversation. Nor have you brought any material to influence anyones position on the subject. You judge my character, but I have never pointed a finger or slandered anyone's professionalism. Take a look at the way you are posting before you say anything about my career.

 

[The_Russian]

Didn't you know......Russian is our resident Gulfstream PFT whore. I guess that is what happens when you PAY for your job.

Ask her, she will openly admit it.

Come say that to my face. I will gladly pick you up at FLL when you want to talk. You also know nothing about me. How dare you post against my character.