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Who has left ASA for SkyWest?

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OK, so if I vote in alpa, how would the ASA & SKW negotiations be conducted? As a single pilot group vs. management? Or in a three-way round-table?

Also perhaps more importantly...I like SKW because of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. I can promise you that I would never, ever bid anything east of denver, for any amount of money, and a lot of guys here share my attitude. So with that being said, how would the seniority integration work?

I would need absolute assurance of an equitable list merger plan. DOH is not an option, It would have to be one-for-one thing kind of thing with some sort of fences. My personal life cannot deal with relocation to ATL.

Without ironclad assurances as to my domicile (and upgrade in that domicile) ALPA = DIVORCE!

So what is the plan on that, and how will it be assured?


It should be DOH plus fences. That's industry standard when two equals are merged.

Someone said they fear getting dislaced in 3 or so years when the fences come down. I don't see that happening. Just like most of you would never bid east of Denver, most of us will never bid west of Atlanta. You'll see a few west coast people and Atlanta-haters cross, but I'd bet that's capped at 20%. Most of the really senior pilots are ATL based and Southern bred. And we 'aint goin' west, young man! Y'all have nothing to fear.
 
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People need to read up on the provisions of the ALPA Merger Manual or whatever the formal document is called before they post. There is no "standard protocol." The merger manual requires that career expectations be maintained however. There is absolutely no requirement anywhere for DOH to be honored. ASA was acquired by a larger and financially stronger company. The alternative to being acquired was liquidation or being purchased by another company. Honoring DOH for ASA pilots would violate the provisions of the ALPA guidelines as it would put SkyWest pilots at a severe disadvantage.

What SkyWest pilots have to worry about is not having any representation in the event of a forced integration brought on by a successful single carrier petition. In that case ASA pilots might have the upper hand since the ALPA merger manual only applies if both carriers are represented by ALPA. There would be no real protection from DOH integration since the terms of the integration would be negotiated by the ASA union and management.

The only way DOH could work is if the fences were permanent. The drawback of course would be what happens in the event of a furlough? That would disproportionally effect SKYW pilots. So you'd need DOH, permanent fences, and furlough protection. Probably not going to happen.

Let's look at career expectations for ASA pilots hired prior to being bought. Am I missing anything below?

1. ATL domicile
2. No flying for airlines other than DAL
3. 3-5 year upgrade?

How does that compare to SKYW?

1. Variety of domiciles across country
2. Flying for two or more airlines (UAL and DAL and used to have CO)
3. Upgrades in as little as 4-6 months but generally around 2-3 years
 
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"I understand it isn't so strong in SLC, DEN, or California"

May need to defer your understander. DEN and SLC are union hotbeads. California not so much.
 
Let's look at career expectations for ASA pilots hired prior to being bought. Am I missing anything below?

1. ATL domicile
2. No flying for airlines other than DAL
3. 3-5 year upgrade?


How about a SLC domicile? !!!!!

Upgrades have ranged from off the street captains to 5 years in the 6 plus years I have been here. It is a constantly moving picture at most airlies
 
How about a SLC domicile? !!!!!

Upgrades have ranged from off the street captains to 5 years in the 6 plus years I have been here. It is a constantly moving picture at most airlies

How long was SLC a domicile for ASA?
How many crews?
How many ASA pilots were hired during the period that SLC was open?

How long has SKYW had a domicile in SLC?
How many crews are based there?
How many SKYW pilots hired on from the time SLC opened which was probably a codeshare with Western, until the present time?

Bases open and bases close. SkyWest has had bases close just like practically every regional. SLC was a small outstation for ASA, was it not? Given the small size of the base was it a reasonable career expectation to spend a career in SLC as a captain for a large number of ASA pilots?

While upgrade times have varied widely when was the last time they were below a year at ASA?
At the time of the merger was the bottom of the captain list comprised of street captains? According to airlinepilotcentral.com the most junior captain at ASA was hired in mid 2001. So you haven't seen any street captains in the past 5 years at least.
 
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And btw, United constantly shifts our flying back and forth with Mesa. As far as I know, we're not getting into a playground dispute with them over "our" flying.

How many aircraft did you say were transferred to Mesa?

Big difference between losing block hours and overall flying versus changes in city pairs.

But I'm sure you knew that. Let's try for a better analogy next time.
 
Good point. Nor does it equate to you being stupid, uninformed, too new to know any better, or naive.
......

Hey N,
When you're brand new somewhere and your total airline experience consists of 6 months at Mesa it doesn't qualify you to fully judge the situation at your new airline. Just because ALPA didn't carry your water at Mesa doesn't mean the union is useless.

At least take the time to learn something about the issues and the history at your new job before you spout off sounding like a teenage know-it-all.
Just my advice.

And when you really get brave and grow the appropriate anatomical accoutrements perhaps you'll have the courage to sign your name. Until then it's really hard to have much respect for you or your "I just got here but from my vast airline experiece I can tell you..." attitude.

Nobody likes people like that. Nobody. I've got some PM's from some folks commenting privately about your posts.
 
Dave:

I'll come briefly out of retirement to even up the arguement a little bit.

SkyWest is rightfully worried about its "career expectations" due to an over exposure to United risk. Not only was the price paid for ASA an incredible deal, flying for Delta is a life boat that SkyWest has a bankruptcy proof ticket to ride, thanks to ASA. Here is Boyd's take on the situation. You can figure out for yourself what this means for SkyWest.
It's official. United Airlines is now on the block. The For Sale sign is posted.
United employees: If you thought going through bankruptcy was a fun ride, a merger will be the emotional and financial equivalent of a supersonic ride on Disneyland's Pirates of The Caribbean.
'Cept in this case the Pirates win. You lose. As will communities and airports around the nation.
United grandly announced today that it had hired an investment bank to, as was stated in perfect Airlinese in Crain's Chicago Business: " ...explore a range of strategic options, including possible mergers with other carriers..."
Which means, United management appears to have tossed in the towel in regard to moving United forward as an airline system (not that they ever had a towel in the firstplace) and is trying to merge the airline and then get out.
As another ominous sign, United officials have been quoted using the surefire buzzword that usually indicates that strategic planning is now on the shelf in place of fast gains: they've used the term: increase shareholder value. Not "competitive value." Not "airline value," but shareholder value, which means increasing the price of stock certificates, not necessarily the value of the airline as a vibrant, growing entity. It's often a term that indicates the management goal is to simply get stock price up, not necessarily increase the competitive value of the airline.
In reporting the story, Crain's made the mistake of parroting one of the Urban Legends infesting the airline industry: overcapacity. It's another buzzword that they and others have taken as gospel, regardless of the fact that today airlines are full, chocka-block, no room in coach. Selling all the product. But they and others in the media will earnestly read what's written elsewhere, and listen to folks like those at the top of United, and repeat it without a shred of investigation.
Too Much Competition? Let's Merge It Away.
The new definition of "overcapacity" - a situation where some people want less competition, and the easy solution is to cut seats out of the market, limiting product. Then, because current demand is otherwisefilling virtually all seats, airlines will carry fewer passengers, but be able to charge them more.
It's called cut production to get higher prices. That's exactly how the term "overcapacity" is used today, within an airline industry that is running at 80% plus load factors. And, as we've seen with capacity cuts since 9/11, it doesn't work for diddly in the markets where there is a lot of capacity. That's because the capacity gets quickly replaced in such markets. It's the Roanokes, the Fresnos, the Molines, and the Lansings that get the Bionic Merger Winkie.
Hard Truth: Mergers Always Result In Less.
It's historical fact that a mergers always represent not only less than the sum of the original parts, but almost always less than the heady promises and projections made by their proponents. Less employment, less competition, and - ignore this at your peril, rural America - less air service.
Actually, mergers would be good for some carriers. Like, the ones that don't get involved. Major airline mergers don't bring the instant synergies and immediate revenue cross-flows that generally are touted by university aviation professors, financial "houses" and other entities whose knowledge of the airline industry can be easily crammed on the back of a cocktail napkin.
And while major airline mergers make millions for the folks who concoct them, they tie up management energies and during the messy merger process, hamstring the ability for the new entity to implement aggressive market strategies. The result is that the competition - the ones interested in running airlines, instead of pulling stock deals - can exploit the situation. Going forward, with new fleets coming on line, new market opportunities that will be coming up in the next three years will require focused strategy and the ability to implement such strategy.
Meanwhile the airline newlyweds will be tied up in trying to bridge maintenance programs, merge seniority lists. combine training and operational systems, and try to rationalize disparate airliner fleets. Mergers take years to effect the supposed benefits they promise. And even then, they don't.
Delta turned a respectable profit last quarter and appears to be headed in the right direction. When they come out of bankruptcy I expect a mainline order that will trigger provisions for a further relaxation of scope on large RJ's in pro rata with the mainline numbers. ATL is the biggest hub and SkyWest's purchase agreement results in their having the upper hand when new flying is handed out. So in addition to the ASA airplanes you are enjoying now, there is the prospect for future growth, again thanks to SkyWest's purchase of ASA.

This was, and is, far from a one way street.

~~~^~~~ (going immediately back into retirement)
 
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Dave,

Not sure what I did to earn your scorn, but I'll chalk it up to the same ol' 'if you're not pro-union you must be stupid' attitude of many (not all) of the OC.

Who says I worked for Mesa? I never did. Who says I just started here? I didn't. I have worked for two other airlines, one ALPA one not. Before that I flew in different capacities before coming to the airlines.

I have no idea how you can take what I posted and spew back what you did.

Dave, have you ever worked for an ALPA represented airline? If so, what was your experience? And since you are a CA with the requisite time, why don't you apply to an ALPA airline and move on?

I love the tired old crap from the Unionistas that says you have to be here at SkyWest for some period of time (how long is that, by the way?) before your opinion counts.

Like I've said before, I think we have it better than anyone else at SkyWest being non-union. Your experience may differ.
 
Dave-

Why is it acceptable for you to be so aggressive and disrespectful in your posts to others? Is that how you pursuade people to your views?

We know that you want to staple ASA pilots to the bottom should there be a merger. However; you fail to accept the fact that Skywest Inc bought us, not Skywest Airlines. There is a huge difference. It is this difference that makes a merger of some sort necessary for both you and me. Without it, you may find that your future is not so bright.

What say you?
 
Boyd is something of a legend...mostly phantom however. We tend to see his writings simply roll with the current trends and provide little in the way of future prediction or real substansive value via research; the above post is written like it's a lecture to a college aviation class, not to industry insiders or people of influence. I've studied a lot of business and finance, among other things, and I've never even heard of the terms "competitive value" or "airline value"--why would United have used those in the past when they are seemingly only in Mr. Boyd's own consultant-buzzword dictionary. At least he would have had a little more respect if he used "enterprise value", but suggesting the use of shareholder value is new and different for UAL (or any public company), simply sounds like good writing. If he had any wits, he would have also discovered shareholder value is his "stock certificate"s outstanding times their price (capitalization) MINUS liabilities; it's not simply a measure of stock price. In fact, you can increase shareholder value many ways even with a stagnant stock, notably by paying down or refinancing debt; sometimes asset sales can create more cash than the asset was worth on books, especially if there is a lot of intangible value in it. Don't forget, consultancy is about salesmanship, not necessarily about having the right answers; the fact that Boyd gets quoted all the time only reinforces his perceived validity. He's a see-sawer....and probably a consultant to Frontier

I am reminded of the UPS commercial a few years back where the external consultants came in and gave a big presentation and the hiring company said, "that is great, let's implement the plan!"---to which the consultants said, "we only suggest changes, we don't help implement them".
 
Dave-

We know that you want to staple ASA pilots to the bottom should there be a merger. However; you fail to accept the fact that Skywest Inc bought us, not Skywest Airlines. There is a huge difference. It is this difference that makes a merger of some sort necessary for both you and me. Without it, you may find that your future is not so bright.

What say you?

I say you're illiterate and unable to comprehend my posts. Or the first word in your alias is describing your current state.

I talk about preserving career expectations and you think I'm talking about a staple job.

I'm quite aware ASA was puchased by the parent company of SkyWest.

You seem to think I'm opposed to an integration.

Where are you getting all these ideas from? Problems distinguishing my posts from others? I'll give you a hint. My avatar has the cool amphib with the GG Bridge in the background. If you don't see the pretty airplane and the famous bridge it's someone else.

Go back and read my posts.
Then reply.
 
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Ok flame on but... ASA was an Acquisition by SkyWest Inc, made possible on the backs of SkyWest pilots. NOT a merger.

Therefore, Fences and(drum roll) ..... Staple!!!!
 
Dave,

Not sure what I did to earn your scorn, but I'll chalk it up to the same ol' 'if you're not pro-union you must be stupid' attitude of many (not all) of the OC.

Who says I worked for Mesa? I never did. Who says I just started here? I didn't. I have worked for two other airlines, one ALPA one not. Before that I flew in different capacities before coming to the airlines.

I have no idea how you can take what I posted and spew back what you did.

And since you are a CA with the requisite time, why don't you apply to an ALPA airline and move on?

I love the tired old crap from the Unionistas that says you have to be here at SkyWest for some period of time (how long is that, by the way?) before your opinion counts.

Sorry N but I was responding to a variety of your posts on this and the forum where you can't hide behind a screen name. The response wasn't appropriate for that post where you just sort of lobbed an underhanded jab at me.

I admit I could be mistaken that you worked for Mesa. I can't recall which regional you said you worked for. Sounds like you've bounced around a number of jobs. I like to keep the number of indoc classes to a minimum. Hopefully your current job will work out longer than the last few.

Nobody said you can't have an opinion if you're new. It's all in how you express those opinions.

I used to feel the same way you did about unions. Funny how time changes people.

Oh and I hate to break this to you N, but having a bunch of PIC turbine doesn't mean you automatically get job offers from the airline of your choice. Sometimes you can't even get an interview. Go figure. 10,000 guys trying to get a 100 jobs and they don't have a chance to interview everyone. A lot of guys you fly with have had apps in with majors for years. One of the symptoms of SJS is thinking that you will be off to the majors as soon as you hit 1000 PIC. If you're not picky about where you work you can move on pretty quick. But if there's only one or two airlines you want to work for the wait can be long or even indefinite. I already passed on one opportunity to move on because I hate commuting and didn't want to spend 3.5 years to get caught up financially. Mainly it was the commuting.

Plus I believe in trying to make your workplace better rather than just hoping for a better offer. I could easily stay put for quite some time.
 
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Ok flame on but... ASA was an Acquisition by SkyWest Inc, made possible on the backs of SkyWest pilots. NOT a merger.

Therefore, Fences and(drum roll) ..... Staple!!!!

As appealing as that thought might be do you really want 1800 really pissed off coworkers that would like to burn the place down?

The best integrations occur when neither group is overly pleased with the results. Some type of integration where everyone stays in the same percentile could work along with a few years of fences.
 
SLC was a small outstation for ASA, was it not? Given the small size of the base was it a reasonable career expectation to spend a career in SLC as a captain for a large number of ASA pilots?

SLC topped out at 15 aircraft and 80 crews, IIRC.

ASA hasn't done outstation basing since MCN closed.
 
I'm not sure what's funnier, this:

I knew it wouldn't last!

Checking in on a daily baisis and not posting is not retiring! But nobody ever accused you of being truthful! BTW, I knew you couldn't stay away!

or, this:

Fins said:
I'll come briefly out of retirement to even up the arguement a little bit.
...
~~~^~~~ (going immediately back into retirement)

You guys have a more dysfunctional relationship than me and my last stalking victim.
 
I say you're illiterate and unable to comprehend my posts.

Anytime you'd like to compare IQ's or academic/business credentials - just let me know. Until then...

I believe you have stated, in the past, that you believe that ASA pilots should go to the bottom since you bought us. Am I confused? It seems that you have changed your opinion.
 
As appealing as that thought might be do you really want 1800 really pissed off coworkers that would like to burn the place down?


Lots of Extremely Pissed off Pilots that have been with the company for lots of years moving up that pay scale. YES I think this is what (not me) Skywest management wants. What better way to get those expensive guys to quit. So they can be replaced with a first year FO with no profit sharing or any of that other crap for at least 2 more years.

(funny how the skywest chest thumper guys never mention that you don't get any profit sharing until after 2 years).
 
(funny how the skywest chest thumper guys never mention that you don't get any profit sharing until after 2 years).

ATTENTION!!!!!!!

SKYWEST PILOTS DON'T GET OPERATIONAL REWARDS UNTIL AFTER 1 YEAR. THE FINANCIAL REWARDS PORTION COMES AFTER 2 YEARS.

how was that?

I will get the financial reward for the first time next quarter, and yet from what I'm told by ASA pilots, my pay, benefits, and overall QOL is better for being here rather than there even without it.

It was posted by something on the other bashing thread, but, honestly, I don't know anyone here that wants ill toward ya'll. Most, if not all of us never wanted SkyWest to buy ASA in the first place. We don't want your planes, routes, your base in ATL, etc.
 
Anytime you'd like to compare IQ's or academic/business credentials - just let me know. Until then...

I believe you have stated, in the past, that you believe that ASA pilots should go to the bottom since you bought us. Am I confused? It seems that you have changed your opinion.

I'm not much for comparing IQ's. Childish if you ask me.

As far as business credentials go I've owned a small corpration in the past and I currently have a side business that puts more money in my pocket than flying does.

If you can find a post where I advocated a staple I'll give you $100. I have not edited or deleted any post in relation to that issue.

I anxiously await you coming up with proof or aplogizing for accusing me of being one of the idiots advocating stapling ASA pilots to the bottom of any list. Never have never will. It would be a disaster.
 
Sounds like a perfect solution to me. And the SkyWest guys and gals won't mind as long as your DOH is changed to the date SKYW bought you so your former parent company could stay in business.

If thats not a staple, what is?

But then he backs off immediately.

To me a staple is just as reasonable a solution as DOH. So yes there is some sarcasm there. I figure if an ASA guys pushes for DOH we should be pushing just as hard for a staple since neither is an equitable solution.

An equitable merger protocol would take these factors into account and preserve the all important career expectations.

1. Average ASA pilot is more senior than average SKYW pilot
2. SKYW pilots historically upgrade much faster than ASA pilots, in some cases less than 6 months and generally within 2 or 3 years

3. ASA was rescued from near certain bankruptcy
4. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of UAX flying
5. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of west coast bases
6. Prior to acquisition ASA pilots had no expectation of potential codeshare flying for partner other than DAL. SKYW actively bids for flying with other airlines according to SEC filed documents.

So an equitable merger protocol would not harm SKYW pilots the way a pure DOH merger would. An equitable merger protocol would force ASA pilots to make some sort of sacrifice in exchange for the new opportunties offered. In light of the fact that ASA would be bankrupt had they not been purchased by SKYW how can any reasonable person suggest that SKYW pilots be harmed in the aftermath of a merger?

Bottom line? The only fair way to merge the lists would be using some sort of ratio and fences.

Sounds like he'd make a good politician to me.


So far as DOH goes, aren't SW and ASA about the same age?
 
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Who cares- Just stop the carpetbagger in St' George. We're being treated like a red headed step child anyways. Just keep the Skywest people on their side of the fence, and we'll stay on ours. Just my opinion.
 
Turkey shoot-

I guess I'll have to split that $100 with you.

Dave-

It is statements like that one that I was referring to. Also, glad for your success in your other endeavors. I, too, have run a successful bisuness in the past that made more than ASA (not that it's too hard to do that). IQ's are childish? I don't know what to tell you there. I would like to see you tone done your aggressiveness towards us at ASA is all. Sure we've got some rednecks, but you've got some...um....what do you guys have there anyway? We need to work together. Insulting us doesn't accomplish that.
 
Turkey shoot-

I guess I'll have to split that $100 with you.

I'll PM you with instructions for my overseas account. ;)

In the end, a merger of lists will benefit everyone. If the SkyWest guys truly believe that once ASA accepts a concessionary contract, they will not be next, they've been snowed. Money is number one and they'll be after SW next with the same threats of tranferring assets if a move is made to unionize after they cut your pay.

Count on it. Money first, employees second. Nothing wrong with it, it's just how it is though. Figure it out, it's been the trend in the rest of the industry. SkyWest is not insulated from this.
 
When will you people learn to read?

Here's what I said taken right out of my post that you quoted:

"To me a staple is just as reasonable a solution as DOH. So yes there is some sarcasm there. I figure if an ASA guys pushes for DOH we should be pushing just as hard for a staple since neither is an equitable solution."

What part of "neither is an equitable solution" is so difficult to comprehend?

Does it really sound like I'm adovcating a staple or am I using the staple as a way to make the point that it's just as bad as DOH?

Did you really make it through high school?
 
I'm done on this thread.
If anyone really thinks I've advocated a staple PM me and I'll be happy to come up with some links that will help with your understanding of the use of sarcasm and analogies in writing.
 
ALPA merger policy never mentions DOH. The policy intends to preserve the career expectations of the pilot groups involved, not their DOH.

ALPA Administrative Manual:
1. The merger representatives shall carefully weigh all the equities inherent in their merger situation. In joint session, the merger representatives should attempt to match equities to various methods of integration until a fair and equitable agreement is reached, keeping in mind the following goals, in no particular order:

a. Preserve jobs.

b. Avoid windfalls to either group at the expense of the other.

c. Maintain or improve pre‑merger pay and standard of living.

d. Maintain or improve pre‑merger pilot status.

e. Minimize detrimental changes to career expectations.
 
Turkey shoot-

. Sure we've got some rednecks, but you've got some...um....what do you guys have there anyway?

Some "Good Ole Boys" at ASA?? What sort of Demographic do you think we're going to cater to flying heavily into South Georgia, Alabama, Mississippi, and Louisiana?? Hey, I take pride in the fact I'm a redneck- a professional one anyway.
 

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