Who has left ASA for SkyWest?

[John Pennekamp]

OK, so if I vote in alpa, how would the ASA & SKW negotiations be conducted? As a single pilot group vs. management? Or in a three-way round-table?

Also perhaps more importantly...I like SKW because of LOCATION, LOCATION, LOCATION. I can promise you that I would never, ever bid anything east of denver, for any amount of money, and a lot of guys here share my attitude. So with that being said, how would the seniority integration work?

I would need absolute assurance of an equitable list merger plan. DOH is not an option, It would have to be one-for-one thing kind of thing with some sort of fences. My personal life cannot deal with relocation to ATL.

Without ironclad assurances as to my domicile (and upgrade in that domicile) ALPA = DIVORCE!

So what is the plan on that, and how will it be assured?

It should be DOH plus fences. That's industry standard when two equals are merged.

Someone said they fear getting dislaced in 3 or so years when the fences come down. I don't see that happening. Just like most of you would never bid east of Denver, most of us will never bid west of Atlanta. You'll see a few west coast people and Atlanta-haters cross, but I'd bet that's capped at 20%. Most of the really senior pilots are ATL based and Southern bred. And we 'aint goin' west, young man! Y'all have nothing to fear.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

People need to read up on the provisions of the ALPA Merger Manual or whatever the formal document is called before they post. There is no "standard protocol." The merger manual requires that career expectations be maintained however. There is absolutely no requirement anywhere for DOH to be honored. ASA was acquired by a larger and financially stronger company. The alternative to being acquired was liquidation or being purchased by another company. Honoring DOH for ASA pilots would violate the provisions of the ALPA guidelines as it would put SkyWest pilots at a severe disadvantage.

What SkyWest pilots have to worry about is not having any representation in the event of a forced integration brought on by a successful single carrier petition. In that case ASA pilots might have the upper hand since the ALPA merger manual only applies if both carriers are represented by ALPA. There would be no real protection from DOH integration since the terms of the integration would be negotiated by the ASA union and management.

The only way DOH could work is if the fences were permanent. The drawback of course would be what happens in the event of a furlough? That would disproportionally effect SKYW pilots. So you'd need DOH, permanent fences, and furlough protection. Probably not going to happen.

Let's look at career expectations for ASA pilots hired prior to being bought. Am I missing anything below?

1. ATL domicile
2. No flying for airlines other than DAL
3. 3-5 year upgrade?

How does that compare to SKYW?

1. Variety of domiciles across country
2. Flying for two or more airlines (UAL and DAL and used to have CO)
3. Upgrades in as little as 4-6 months but generally around 2-3 years

 

[Russ]

"I understand it isn't so strong in SLC, DEN, or California"

May need to defer your understander. DEN and SLC are union hotbeads. California not so much.

 

[legalalien]

Let's look at career expectations for ASA pilots hired prior to being bought. Am I missing anything below?

1. ATL domicile
2. No flying for airlines other than DAL
3. 3-5 year upgrade?


How about a SLC domicile? !!!!!

Upgrades have ranged from off the street captains to 5 years in the 6 plus years I have been here. It is a constantly moving picture at most airlies

 

[Dave Benjamin]

How about a SLC domicile? !!!!!

Upgrades have ranged from off the street captains to 5 years in the 6 plus years I have been here. It is a constantly moving picture at most airlies

How long was SLC a domicile for ASA?
How many crews?
How many ASA pilots were hired during the period that SLC was open?

How long has SKYW had a domicile in SLC?
How many crews are based there?
How many SKYW pilots hired on from the time SLC opened which was probably a codeshare with Western, until the present time?

Bases open and bases close. SkyWest has had bases close just like practically every regional. SLC was a small outstation for ASA, was it not? Given the small size of the base was it a reasonable career expectation to spend a career in SLC as a captain for a large number of ASA pilots?

While upgrade times have varied widely when was the last time they were below a year at ASA?
At the time of the merger was the bottom of the captain list comprised of street captains? According to airlinepilotcentral.com the most junior captain at ASA was hired in mid 2001. So you haven't seen any street captains in the past 5 years at least.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

And btw, United constantly shifts our flying back and forth with Mesa. As far as I know, we're not getting into a playground dispute with them over "our" flying.

How many aircraft did you say were transferred to Mesa?

Big difference between losing block hours and overall flying versus changes in city pairs.

But I'm sure you knew that. Let's try for a better analogy next time.

 

[Dave Benjamin]

Good point. Nor does it equate to you being stupid, uninformed, too new to know any better, or naive.
......

Hey N,
When you're brand new somewhere and your total airline experience consists of 6 months at Mesa it doesn't qualify you to fully judge the situation at your new airline. Just because ALPA didn't carry your water at Mesa doesn't mean the union is useless.

At least take the time to learn something about the issues and the history at your new job before you spout off sounding like a teenage know-it-all.
Just my advice.

And when you really get brave and grow the appropriate anatomical accoutrements perhaps you'll have the courage to sign your name. Until then it's really hard to have much respect for you or your "I just got here but from my vast airline experiece I can tell you..." attitude.

Nobody likes people like that. Nobody. I've got some PM's from some folks commenting privately about your posts.

 

[~~~^~~~]

Dave:

I'll come briefly out of retirement to even up the arguement a little bit.

SkyWest is rightfully worried about its "career expectations" due to an over exposure to United risk. Not only was the price paid for ASA an incredible deal, flying for Delta is a life boat that SkyWest has a bankruptcy proof ticket to ride, thanks to ASA. Here is Boyd's take on the situation. You can figure out for yourself what this means for SkyWest.

It's official. United Airlines is now on the block. The For Sale sign is posted.
United employees: If you thought going through bankruptcy was a fun ride, a merger will be the emotional and financial equivalent of a supersonic ride on Disneyland's Pirates of The Caribbean.
'Cept in this case the Pirates win. You lose. As will communities and airports around the nation.
United grandly announced today that it had hired an investment bank to, as was stated in perfect Airlinese in Crain's Chicago Business: " ...explore a range of strategic options, including possible mergers with other carriers..."
Which means, United management appears to have tossed in the towel in regard to moving United forward as an airline system (not that they ever had a towel in the firstplace) and is trying to merge the airline and then get out.
As another ominous sign, United officials have been quoted using the surefire buzzword that usually indicates that strategic planning is now on the shelf in place of fast gains: they've used the term: increase shareholder value. Not "competitive value." Not "airline value," but shareholder value, which means increasing the price of stock certificates, not necessarily the value of the airline as a vibrant, growing entity. It's often a term that indicates the management goal is to simply get stock price up, not necessarily increase the competitive value of the airline.
In reporting the story, Crain's made the mistake of parroting one of the Urban Legends infesting the airline industry: overcapacity. It's another buzzword that they and others have taken as gospel, regardless of the fact that today airlines are full, chocka-block, no room in coach. Selling all the product. But they and others in the media will earnestly read what's written elsewhere, and listen to folks like those at the top of United, and repeat it without a shred of investigation.
Too Much Competition? Let's Merge It Away.
The new definition of "overcapacity" - a situation where some people want less competition, and the easy solution is to cut seats out of the market, limiting product. Then, because current demand is otherwisefilling virtually all seats, airlines will carry fewer passengers, but be able to charge them more.
It's called cut production to get higher prices. That's exactly how the term "overcapacity" is used today, within an airline industry that is running at 80% plus load factors. And, as we've seen with capacity cuts since 9/11, it doesn't work for diddly in the markets where there is a lot of capacity. That's because the capacity gets quickly replaced in such markets. It's the Roanokes, the Fresnos, the Molines, and the Lansings that get the Bionic Merger Winkie.
Hard Truth: Mergers Always Result In Less.
It's historical fact that a mergers always represent not only less than the sum of the original parts, but almost always less than the heady promises and projections made by their proponents. Less employment, less competition, and - ignore this at your peril, rural America - less air service.
Actually, mergers would be good for some carriers. Like, the ones that don't get involved. Major airline mergers don't bring the instant synergies and immediate revenue cross-flows that generally are touted by university aviation professors, financial "houses" and other entities whose knowledge of the airline industry can be easily crammed on the back of a cocktail napkin.
And while major airline mergers make millions for the folks who concoct them, they tie up management energies and during the messy merger process, hamstring the ability for the new entity to implement aggressive market strategies. The result is that the competition - the ones interested in running airlines, instead of pulling stock deals - can exploit the situation. Going forward, with new fleets coming on line, new market opportunities that will be coming up in the next three years will require focused strategy and the ability to implement such strategy.
Meanwhile the airline newlyweds will be tied up in trying to bridge maintenance programs, merge seniority lists. combine training and operational systems, and try to rationalize disparate airliner fleets. Mergers take years to effect the supposed benefits they promise. And even then, they don't.

Delta turned a respectable profit last quarter and appears to be headed in the right direction. When they come out of bankruptcy I expect a mainline order that will trigger provisions for a further relaxation of scope on large RJ's in pro rata with the mainline numbers. ATL is the biggest hub and SkyWest's purchase agreement results in their having the upper hand when new flying is handed out. So in addition to the ASA airplanes you are enjoying now, there is the prospect for future growth, again thanks to SkyWest's purchase of ASA.

This was, and is, far from a one way street.

~~~^~~~ (going immediately back into retirement)

 

[SkyNation]

Dave,

Not sure what I did to earn your scorn, but I'll chalk it up to the same ol' 'if you're not pro-union you must be stupid' attitude of many (not all) of the OC.

Who says I worked for Mesa? I never did. Who says I just started here? I didn't. I have worked for two other airlines, one ALPA one not. Before that I flew in different capacities before coming to the airlines.

I have no idea how you can take what I posted and spew back what you did.

Dave, have you ever worked for an ALPA represented airline? If so, what was your experience? And since you are a CA with the requisite time, why don't you apply to an ALPA airline and move on?

I love the tired old crap from the Unionistas that says you have to be here at SkyWest for some period of time (how long is that, by the way?) before your opinion counts.

Like I've said before, I think we have it better than anyone else at SkyWest being non-union. Your experience may differ.

 

[DrunkIrishman]

Dave-

Why is it acceptable for you to be so aggressive and disrespectful in your posts to others? Is that how you pursuade people to your views?

We know that you want to staple ASA pilots to the bottom should there be a merger. However; you fail to accept the fact that Skywest Inc bought us, not Skywest Airlines. There is a huge difference. It is this difference that makes a merger of some sort necessary for both you and me. Without it, you may find that your future is not so bright.

What say you?