You stay classy Linden Hillman

[texman]

While I have never seen an AAI pilot come on here and comment about SWAPA's internal affairs, there is no shortage of SWA pilots who seem to think that they are free to comment on ATN71 matters.

No one cares what you think about our union, but if you want to guarantee this thing goes to arbitration, just keep poking your finger in our eye. . . . .

Be careful what you ask for, though. :erm:

That picture is exactly how imagined you. Big old captain glasses!LOL!

 

[CaptWidgeon]

if things were so fine at AT prior to the acquisition announcement why:

1. was alpa brought onto AT's property?
2. was such a high percentage to strike approved?

just looking for a little perspective from that side.

edit:
3. how long were in you without a contract? i thought it was 5+/- yrs, but
i am curious.

 

[PapaWoody]

How long have you been in the airline biz? I ask because you post as if things never change. The SWA contract has an ammendable date, a seniority number does not. If things go badly for SWA, the first thing to go will be the pilot contract that I gave up seniority to get.
You're not giving up any seniority, because you have none on our list. What remains to be seen is what your seniority at AirTran translates into at SWA. And yes, the value of the career that you earned at AirTran vs. the value of the career that I earned at SWA will be taken into account when the conversion is complete.



They get a growth and seniority advancement that they wouldn't have had otherwise, they get a larger profit sharing check, they get 27hr layovers in the Carribbean and Cancun. BTW, the pilots didn't buy us.
If you believe that SWA wasn't gonna grow without AAI, then you must also believe the things that your CEO said about your future prospects. Or maybe you can realize that both were making statements that were designed to get the deal past the regulators. As for the statement "the pilots didn't buy us", you are correct. However, we were a part of the profit machine that allowed our company to acquire your company, not the other way around. Another fact that the arbitrators seem to be interested in.


What if they give concessions in 5 years from now, will I get that too? Think that will never happen? Talk to guys fron UAL/DAL/UsAir. SWA guys were leaving in droves to go to those airlines 10 years ago when the SWA contract was the anchor of the major airline industry.
LOL - "SWA guys were leaving in droves". A handful of guys left to go to legacies back then. Meanwhile, at AAI, your guys were actually leaving in "droves" to go anywhere else, including SWA. One of the reasons your seniority is what it is today, turnover. Something of which we have had very little. Oh, and I would also like to remind you, even when our "contract was the anchor of the major airline industry" we were still leaps and bounds above AAI from a contractual standpoint.

My point is, things change in this business, seniority, not so much. Arbitrators know this. Apples to oranges my friend.
Again, refer to my previous comments on your "seniority", of which you currently have none at the company that acquired you. And yes, things change in this business, but if history is any guide whatever ill winds may or may not blow at good old SWA, they would affect AAI in a more negative manner. (How many did we furlough in '08 again?) As the sage said, those who forget the past are condemned to repeat it.

I hope this negotiation / arbitration goes well for all involved and I hope that we are one big happy family soon. But unlike the AAI guys, I actually have the potential of damage to the future of my career because of this. Maybe if more AAI pilots realized this, the position of the SWA pilots rebutting your claims to relative seniority and, yes, even DOH, would be more understandable. We're not arrogant, we just know that this has potential to damage our careers, and if so, how much. You, on the other hand, get to benefit no matter how this goes down. See the difference yet?

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[PCL_128]

Yes, the letter asked for a public retraction.

Actually, it didn't. It only requested a clarification to the two unions. Nothing public.

 

[gt1900]

I hope this negotiation / arbitration goes well for all involved and I hope that we are one big happy family soon. But unlike the AAI guys, I actually have the potential of damage to the future of my career because of this. Maybe if more AAI pilots realized this, the position of the SWA pilots rebutting your claims to relative seniority and, yes, even DOH, would be more understandable. We're not arrogant, we just know that this has potential to damage our careers, and if so, how much. You, on the other hand, get to benefit no matter how this goes down. See the difference yet?

Respectfully and Fraternally,
PapaWoody

Hate to tell you this, but this has already damaged my career in the short term. Long term is anyones guess. I would be sitting in the left seat bidding over 50% if it weren't for the SWA merger (and yes, my pay would be about the same, or better, as a right seat SWA guy). I would retire in the top 10 and get any schedule I want. The SWA guys forget that this isn't just about contracts. SWA's contract is much better, but don't forget that SWA is what it is because SWA historically paid much less then its competitors, and that allowed them to grow based off of their cost advantages (sound familier). The biggest issue Im hearing is with the SWA FO's. However, if this merger leads to you guys gaining a few percentage points seniority wise and speeds your upgrade time, then why are you b!tching? This is a good thing for you as well if it speeds your upgrade do to huge growth. Face it, SWA wasn't growing before the AAI purchase (AAI was growing and hiring), and now they are. This is a great thing for the SWA FO's. The growth potential because of the AAI buyout is HUGE. And don't kid yourselves, SWA wasn't coming into ATL or DCA without the AAI purchase. AAI and DAL locked up ATL with their gate contracts.

 

[Ty Webb]

That picture is exactly how imagined you. Big old captain glasses!LOL!

Actually, that's not me, it's "Baghdad Bob" Dylan.

That's my hand, though, taking Bobby D's stapler away from him. . . :laugh:

 

[PapaWoody]

Hate to tell you this, but this has already damaged my career in the short term. Long term is anyones guess. I would be sitting in the left seat bidding over 50% if it weren't for the SWA merger (and yes, my pay would be about the same, or better, as a right seat SWA guy).
Because of the acquisition, you will receive better than an upgrade at AAI, and so will all the F/O's junior to you.

I would retire in the top 10 and get any schedule I want.
And still never reach the level of an airline career that the acquisition by SWA now offers you.

The SWA guys forget that this isn't just about contracts. SWA's contract is much better, but don't forget that SWA is what it is because SWA historically paid much less then its competitors, and that allowed them to grow based off of their cost advantages (sound familier).
And yet SWA always paid better and had a better contract than AAI, for the entire history of AAI. Sound familiar?

The biggest issue Im hearing is with the SWA FO's. However, if this merger leads to you guys gaining a few percentage points seniority wise and speeds your upgrade time, then why are you b!tching?
Actually, every guy in front of the SWA F/Os will delay their upgrade time, thus damaging their prospective career earnings. (for the record, I'm not an F/O)

This is a good thing for you as well if it speeds your upgrade do to huge growth.
Maybe, maybe not. Reference the age 60 farce for how good something is / is not.

Face it, SWA wasn't growing before the AAI purchase (AAI was growing and hiring), and now they are.
SWA went through a temporary growth stoppage in '08 (without furloughing, I might add) due to the economy. Just like AAI, I might add. Your "firm orders", well they weren't so firm were they, since we bought them, along with everything else. You were for sale, we weren't.


This is a great thing for the SWA FO's. The growth potential because of the AAI buyout is HUGE. And don't kid yourselves, SWA wasn't coming into ATL or DCA without the AAI purchase. AAI and DAL locked up ATL with their gate contracts.
Don't kid yourself - this isn't a great thing for the SWA FO's. As it was illustrated to me, it's either going to be a mortal wound or a flesh wound, the difference is TBD. As for us coming into ATL or DCA without you, ask Frontier how that worked out for them in DEN.

Again, not trying to say you don't "bring anything to the table". Just trying to get you guys to acknowledge that this is a win for you, no matter how it works out, and probably a loss for us, no matter how it works out. Only arrogance would prevent that, and ignorance, of course.

Fraternally,
PapaWoody

 

[GuppyWN]

Upshot for SWA FO's is actually getting to upgrade sometime in the future. You had an indefinite hold prior to the AT deal. read my tag line below, your own boss said it. With Airtan out of the way you'll actually get a chance to upgrade. You're welcome.

That's why we had 3 new cities in various stages of opening, 175 jets on order and were signing a side letter for -800's for Hawaii and Alaska.

Don't let the facts interfere with your bantering, though.

Gup

 

[GuppyWN]

They get a growth and seniority advancement that they wouldn't have had otherwise, they get a larger profit sharing check, they get 27hr layovers in the Carribbean and Cancun. BTW, the pilots didn't buy us.

We get "growth and seniority advancement" by buying you? What's your definition of growth?

Larger profit sharing? Airtran had an operational loss in the first quarter alone of $32.7 MILLION with a total loss of $8.5 MILLION.

27 hours in the Caribbean? I prefer to make $209/hr flying instead of $2.45/hr sitting on my ass.

Gup

 

[Ty Webb]

We get "growth and seniority advancement" by buying you? What's your definition of growth?

Larger profit sharing? Airtran had an operational loss in the first quarter alone of $32.7 MILLION with a total loss of $8.5 MILLION.

27 hours in the Caribbean? I prefer to make $209/hr flying instead of $2.45/hr sitting on my ass.

Gup

AirTran makes money in the 2 and 4th quarters, Gup. The first and third are usually losses, due to the predominantly north-south traffic. This was covered pretty extensively in the past. Hopefully, SWA revenue gurus will leverage this into 4 profitable quarters a year.

Don't tell anyone, but during the 27 hour layover, you get paid guarantee, not just per diem.

Now, me, I'd rather be getting paid daily guarantee, snorkeling in the Caribbean, than sitting on the ramp in DCA waiting out a 3 hour ground stop to ATL, but Ty's crazy like that.

 

[SWA/CA]

want us to think we're pawns in this entire process an we should be thankful for whatever we get.

You are and you should be.

During the 27 hour layover, you get paid guarantee, not just per diem. I'd rather be getting paid guarantee snorkeling in the Caribbean than sitting on the ramp in DCA waiting out a 3 hour ground stop to ATL, but Ty's crazy like that.

I'd rather be at home with my Wife and kids.:beer:

 

[Ty Webb]

You are and you should be.



I'd rather be at home with my Wife and kids.:beer:

When we start getting paid for that, let me know . . . . other than vacation, of course.

 

[Ty Webb]

That's why we had 3 new cities in various stages of opening, 175 jets on order and were signing a side letter for -800's for Hawaii and Alaska.

Don't let the facts interfere with your bantering, though.

Gup

Funny, when I brought up the -800's as "growth", your side quickly described them as "-300 and -500 replacements", and said there were no new airframes available for growth.

You guys have to get together and get your stories straight, before you peddle 'em here on F.I.

 

[-9Capt]

You guys crack me up.

If AT was going out of business any time soon SWA would have waited for them to slide into CH11 and buy them for pennies on the dollar, ala ATA. Make that argument to the arbitrator at the same time you tell them how great your contract is. See where that gets you.

 

[-9Capt]

27 hours in the Caribbean? I prefer to make $209/hr flying instead of $2.45/hr sitting on my ass.

Gup

I've been flying a lot of CUN trips out of BWI lately and every time we've had a SWA guy with his family in the back. Every time they tell us they're VERY interested in getting to fly these trips.

Anyway, whatever gents. Like I said, it's going to an arbitration. It will be what it is. Peace out.