Would you take the plane?

[CX880]

Just to add a twist to this situation, what if there was only an NDB approach available, and the weather was at the NDB minimums?

Most RJ operators don't do NDB approaches because chances are if the airport only had an NDB approach, it's somewhere where an RJ is not economical or at a city where there are about 115 people. Problem solved, not than an NDB app is a big deal unless it's in a valley or mountain area.

 

[embpic1]

I agree that turning off the AP/FD occasionally is good to keep the scan up. When I flew the emb120 for the commuters I never used the autopilot for an approach and would turn off the FD most of the time as long as the wx wasn't on its a$$. It made the job less monotonous for me.

I remember an FO that watched me hand fly an approach (no FD) and asked if he could do the same on his leg. I said sure and told him i thought it was a good idea for everyone to do it at least a few times a month. On the approach into DEN he was all over the place. I asked him nicely to turn the FD back on. He was shocked and pissed at himself that he was having trouble. It is truly amazing how quickly our scan can go to crap. If your SOP will let you, turn off the magic from time to time to keep your scan up.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Most RJ operators don't do NDB approaches because chances are if the airport only had an NDB approach, it's somewhere where an RJ is not economical or at a city where there are about 115 people. Problem solved, not than an NDB app is a big deal unless it's in a valley or mountain area.

Check out the ILS 16 into KAVL when the tower is closed. ASA does this all the time.

 

[Lynxman]

I fail to see the difficulty in that approach.

 

[imacdog]

Check out the ILS 16 into KAVL when the tower is closed. ASA does this all the time.

Kinda looks like just another ILS to me.

 

[Lynxman]

Bro we are talking about a female pilot here lol.

 

[nightfr8er]

The question is are YOU the Captain? If not, then you only have two options:

1. Refuse to go. See your chief pilot. Hope he takes your side.
2. Go. Worst case scenario, you divert. Is the weather above the minimums at your destination? If so, then I assume your issue is no autopilot? Why does having no autopilot scare you? You flew airplanes for years with no autopilot... didn't you?

Most of them out there these days surely didn't. They think that "paying their dues" means flight intstructing for 2 months, and being and FO for two years. And 90% of the ones that I've seen couldn't fly a whole leg, let alone an approach, to near-minimums with no autopilot or FD.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

I fail to see the difficulty in that approach.

It goes like this: 30 miles out, "cleared direct Broad River, Cleared ILS 16, radar service terminated, report down time on Atlanta Center freuency XXX".

This was response to CX 880 saying no one ever uses NDBs in real life.

Lynxman, go ahead and expand on your thought... so female pilots are inferior? Really?

 

[CX880]

Box Office you're a creep. Read what I wrote.

 

[Lynxman]

Lynxman, go ahead and expand on your thought... so female pilots are inferior? Really?

Probably because your brain is a 1/3 the size of a male according to the government scientist Dr Yamuka he has proved it.

 

[SLUF4]

We aren't even allowed to fly raw data on RNAV departures-why do you think that is? It's because the workload is too high and people flying raw data were screwing it up. All I'm saying is that in some instances it would be a good idea to reject the plane. Which airplane would you say is more safe-the one with the AP/FD or the one without?

 

[bgaviator]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

Being a dispatcher, that seems like some piss poor planning on the part of whoever routes the lines.....but unfortunately I have seen it happen some cases.

 

[sayrejm]

It goes like this: 30 miles out, "cleared direct Broad River, Cleared ILS 16, radar service terminated, report down time on Atlanta Center freuency XXX".

This was response to CX 880 saying no one ever uses NDBs in real life.

Lynxman, go ahead and expand on your thought... so female pilots are inferior? Really?

He didn't say no one uses the NDB, he said no one does an NDB approach. Also, we do that in FMS white needles anyway.

 

[CA1900]

Which airplane would you say is more safe-the one with the AP/FD or the one without?

Why even have an MEL, then?

 

[Kaman]

What's the problem? Can the AP/FD be deferred? If the answer is yes...my answer is..."board em' up and let's go". That kind of weather is not unusual in the Northeast, and 380 miles sounds like a 90 minute block in a CRJ...In fact, I'd have the FO fly the leg so I could monitor more effectively.

 

[MikeSF340]

I agree that the flight director is much more of an issue than the autopilot. I would probably take the flight with a VERY solid alternate and I would be one and done on the approach. If I didn't get in on the first try I would be out of there and wouldn't force the issue. I don't remember the last time I shot a raw data ILS in the sim.

 

[ackattacker]

If you feel a flight is "unsafe" without a FD it's time to stop and re-evaluate what you are doing with your life. Are you a pilot or just the headset spreader installed between the computer and the yoke? Seriously. Are you going to declare an emergency if the black box craps out in flight?

I understand that some of you don't get a lot of raw-data time due to SOP's at your airline. That's an issue to take up with your training department. Honesty is good, recognizing your limitations is good; however, if you recognize that you can't safely fly a raw data ILS then the proper response is to *rectify* the situation, not just refuse airplanes when it comes up. Whatever it takes at your airline.

Even if you are out of practice in raw data, presumably you have somebody else there to back you up, call out deviations, and have the professionalism to go around if you exceed stable approach criteria. A few such events may convince your training department that they need to re-institute a focus on basic hand-flying skills before they end up with another Buffalo crash.

 

[Flyer1015]

Sadly, there are CAs who *refuse* to let [any and all] FOs from handflying raw data, and do not do it themselves either.

 

[screamingpax]

Since when has hand flying an airplane to low weather been a no go thing. Man that is pathetic. If you have an ok alternate near by and the other crew member can do their job properly then, yeah! I would take it. We are supposed to be pilots. What would you do if you flew a real airplane with steam gauges and no autopilot? Refuse it everytime?

 

[ackattacker]

I think its funny when someone says they can fly the plane better then the computer!! ahahahahah... Love that, "I AM as good as the 'puter".
Sorry, but no ur not!!

I feel like I need to address this... I'm one of those guys who turns the AP off most of the time unless it's just mindless droning in cruise. I cannot hold altitude in smooth air as good as the autopilot, because if I'm not really focusing I'll drift up and down 20-30 feet before correcting.

Also the autopilot doesn't make mistakes like blow through a preset altitude or heading, which can happen if you are hand-flying and get distracted.

However if I'm focusing I can fly an ILS better than the autopilot, no question about it, particularly if it's windy or turbulent. It's just a fact. I can take into account factors the autopilot can't, such as local weather patterns and wind shifts, configuration and power changes, etc, tight vectors, etc.

I have shot probably over 1000 ILS approaches, mostly hand flown, in all different kinds of aircraft from GA to RJ's. This is not bragging, just pointing out that some of us are out there doing it, and quite safely thank you very much. When somebody says "no way you're as good as the computer" that sounds like a cop-out to me. Why aren't you that good? You *can* be.

 

[Freebrd]

Are you going to declare an emergency if the black box craps out in flight?.

Has happened. asa crew (riddle guys) took off outa JFK lost FMS and declared emrgency back to JFK :blush:

 

[WSurf]

However if I'm focusing I can fly an ILS better than the autopilot.

So you gotta really focus to fly an ILS? Don't focus to hard on that FD! However from Point A to Point B I am sorry, there's none of us that can fly the airplane better thenl "George".

 

[rettofly]

Actually Human Error as a percentage of accident causes has stayed pretty constant between 45-56% since the 1940s.
Technology hasn't necessarily mitigated it, all it has done is change the way we as humans manage to d##k things up in the cockpit. The big risk in this scenario is the way we are trained to fly. The emphasis is no longer on the basics, but more towards systems management. Raw data hand flying could be trained to extreme proficiency in newhire, upgrade and recurrent simulator curricula. But that adds to the training footprint, and most airlines simply don't want to pay the extra cost. Kind of scary really. All we can do is try to hand fly to the extent that company policy and workload allows, so that days like this don't put an airline crew out of the "comfort zone".

If the company does not require its pilots to demonstrate proficiency in raw data / noFD flying to ILS minimums, wouldn't the GOM require higher minimus to dispatch, or prohibit dispatch?

 

[rettofly]

What kind of Pilot's have we created? No autopilot/no flight director and they want to stay home?
For years regionals consisted of aircraft with no autopilots and no flight directors on board-remember the Beach 99's Metroliners and Beach 1900's etc.
Often the copilot side only had a repeater (remember those-no OBS just a CDI needle) and the FO flew every other leg to whatever the weather was.
I flew many years at a Major and this was a nonevent.
I wasn't concerned about our profession until I read this.
Now I know why management takes advantage of the "hired help".

Not to mention the DO228 and EMB110.
I trained raw data to mins at every initial /type rating / recurrent for 12 years. Is that not being done in the regionals? If it's not trained... don't do it.

 

[ackattacker]

So you gotta really focus to fly an ILS?

Nah, when I hand fly an ILS I usually like to eat a sandwich and chat about the bid system. WTF, go back to reading your newspaper and complaining about your pay. Relax, the autopilot's got you covered.

 

[rettofly]

I agree that the flight director is much more of an issue than the autopilot. I would probably take the flight with a VERY solid alternate and I would be one and done on the approach. If I didn't get in on the first try I would be out of there and wouldn't force the issue. I don't remember the last time I shot a raw data ILS in the sim.

This makes my head want to explode. In 4 years of Part 135 ops on CE550/560 and 5 years on P180, both of which have a very fine AP/FD setup, every training cycle included raw data hand flying to mins.. Sometimes they even pulled an engine just to make it interesting (not on the check ride, though). Even got to do it on the backup gauges a time or three.

 

[RJLoser]

Sadly, there are CAs who *refuse* to let [any and all] FOs from handflying raw data, and do not do it themselves either.

Whaaat? Where?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Probably because your brain is a 1/3 the size of a male according to the government scientist Dr Yamuka he has proved it.

That may be the case, but even with my tiny brain, I can go to a bar and drink free all night. Think about it.

 

[777forever]

Can't speak for all regionals but Raw data approaches to mins is not a requirement on any checkride at ASA. It is possible to go years or even your entire career at ASA without shooting a raw data approach. Last raw data approach I did was 2 years ago on a clear VFR day into AGS on CR2 IOE when the Captain told me to do it for practice and make it a habit a couple times a month.

 

[Raoul Duke]

This is a symptom of the PFT generation (at least some of you). Hand flying an airplane is a skill and too many newly minted regional pilots have little experience hand flying an airplane with passengers on board. It (almost) makes you miss the days of the Mighty B-1900 - no autopilot, little automation and some of the best flying I have ever done.