Would you take the plane?

[Abernathy]

It's not the AP that is the issue, I have flown a few ships with deferred AP (and somehow, I always manage to get "assigned" that leg). It's the deferred FD that would be more concerning because I'm not sure that's exactly legal when being dispatched to an airport that is under heavy IFR.

 

[buscap]

Just not in the mood for a round trip like that. Legal? Yes. Gonna do it? No.

Last leg, coming back to ATL?? Yep.

 

[Beergut]

No I would not take it based on the info you have presented. Lets say you get there and have a gear problem/no flap or some other high workload situation. not to mention weather conditions, etc. Now with that being said this is all circumstancial and there may be some cuicumstnaces or information not available here that could be a factor in the decision making process. Its really case dependent. No two flights are the same. In all honestly I dont think you would get any flack from the company for denying this one. Just tell them based on your appraisal of the situation that you do not agree with the release and there for cant accept it. The problem at ASA lies with the captains who dont have the balls to tell the company no.

Ditto. Well said.:beer:

 

[Stifler's Mom]

Need more info. Is this leg 16 on Day 4 and you are worn out from the previous 3-4 days of flying? Have you been flying it already today, and are now getting pushed to your limits with the increased workload?

Winds 10, gusting to 15....won't that trigger the Wind Shear Advisories in ATL? If so, then you probably can't dispatch to begin with.

So which way did it go down? You took the plane when you thought you shouldn't, or you denied the plane and thought you should have gone?

 

[Freebrd]

Puss#@#s!!!!! Guess you'd whine if the FMS was deferred too eh

 

[sinkrate]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

1-Can the flight be completed within the limitations of your company MEL? The master MEL would not limit this flight in this weather. Many 121 operators take into consideration the lack of crew experience and have much more conservative limitations in their MELS for a deferred FD
2-Of course no RVSM, RNAV departures or arrivals. That is usually much more limiting for dispatch than the weather. Prior to RVSM regs flight all the way up to and level at F410 was allowed with no AP or FD. A long leg in a CRJ was a pain in the ass, but done regularly.
3-Is the CA a baby CA? For the 200 foot ceiling dispatch might swap CA's for someone who is off high mins

The point is use your company manuals and answer this question - can the flight be completed within the manual limitations? If it can - take it. Don't let your 'judgment' get in the way of a sound decision. If you are afraid of the flight then you might think about removing yourself from it. Some old school CA's that flew 6,7 and 8 leg days for years on end in AC with no AP installed might make that decision for you.

CRM is good to a point. However it does assume you have a broadly experienced aviator sitting next to you. When you don't it can work against safety. One pilot has seen the situation a hundred times before and knows exactly what to do. The pilot sitting next to him has no clue and is afraid. At that point CRM can result in distractions and compromises that degrade safety quickly. Particularly if it is a high work load and time critical situation.

 

[ackattacker]

Sounds like you're looking for justification for a decision already made. Man up. Either go or don't, decision made, move on. Don't come here looking for second opinions.

 

[SLUF4]

Like others have said, it depends on some more factors. Is this a high workload airport like LGA or ORD, or is it DHN? Are there any unusual NOTAMS that could affect the decision? Also what is the experience level of the FO and what are his or her skills like?

 

[LearLove]

not having said crj200's company MEL so I assume it is legal to fly with both the AP and FD MELd. Also assuming the crew is rested, not new ect....

Given that, always leave yourself a way out. In this case your way out is your alternate which will have at worse 600 and 2 (or 800 and 2 depending on the app). If you can't get it on the ground with 600 and 2 with winds then you need to find another line of work.

I do like the suggestion of swapping the a/c sending the mel'd AP/FD jet to a VFR airport and taking a AP/FD working jet to the WX airport if it possible.

All in all I don't see what the big deal is. As long as it is legal and no other issues compounding the problem (duty time, crew exp., ect.). Some of us around here flew 135 day/night in all wx with no AP/FD and had no problems.

 

[the palm]

Depends on who my FO is....seriously.

 

[BOX OFFICE]

To all the replies saying no way, it's not safe, etc, wow!

How did airlines ever function before we had all this fancy technology to turn us into mindless In Touch reading zombies in the cockpit?!!!

Here's my take. This isn't taking a weekend romp in the Cessna with your mom and the weather exceeds your "personal minimums". You are an airline pilot. Your job is to safely get the passengers where they're going. If they don't have a spare, it's very likely they will cancel the flight should your captain refuse the airplane. Are you then doing your job to get those people where they paid to go? Let's be honest here. This isn't about safety, it's about inconvenience. Flying raw is work, and we spoiled by technology pilots don't like hard work.

If you truly feel it's unsafe because your skills in flying raw data aren't up to par, then you probably need to rethink your career decision or get yourself some remedial training!

 

[SLUF4]

Automation and other technology is there to help mitigate threats and make the flight safer. The airlines functioned before all of this-but was it as safe? Look at accident rates from back then and get back to me. I'm not saying it was unsafe in this case, but if the crew felt it is beyond their limits you have to trust them-that's another part of being a professional airline plot.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

To all the replies saying no way, it's not safe, etc, wow!

How did airlines ever function before we had all this fancy technology to turn us into mindless In Touch reading zombies in the cockpit?!!!

Here's my take. This isn't taking a weekend romp in the Cessna with your mom and the weather exceeds your "personal minimums". You are an airline pilot. Your job is to safely get the passengers where they're going. If they don't have a spare, it's very likely they will cancel the flight should your captain refuse the airplane. Are you then doing your job to get those people where they paid to go? Let's be honest here. This isn't about safety, it's about inconvenience. Flying raw is work, and we spoiled by technology pilots don't like hard work.

If you truly feel it's unsafe because your skills in flying raw data aren't up to par, then you probably need to rethink your career decision or get yourself some remedial training!

Asbestos was miracle material...yrs ago, too.

This is all about ego. I think your passengers would appreciate such a no-go decison. Whats legal is not always safe...blah blah blah.

 

[Freebrd]

This is all about ego. I think your passengers would appreciate such a no-go decison. Whats legal is not always safe...blah blah blah.

Ego? you crazy, and as far as passengers are concerned, yeah, sure the passenegrs would love getting cancelled 'cause weak sister is afraid to fly w/o an AP/FD. Gimme a break. No ego involved, just go fly the thing by hand and get the passengers where they wanna go.

 

[Whydoitry]

Flight directors have been around since at least the 60's, and at least one major does not allow crews to fly raw data ILS approaches when the wx is below VFR. I can fly raw data but as mentioned above it's an ego issue. We are paid to minimize risk and deliver people safely. Raw data to mins is not minimizing risk in my opinion. Get another airplane.

 

[bailout]

I'd go without the autopilot, but not without the flight director. You can all act like you're superpilots, but the facts state none of you are as good as the 'puter.

 

[Amish RakeFight]

Ego? you crazy, and as far as passengers are concerned, yeah, sure the passenegrs would love getting cancelled 'cause weak sister is afraid to fly w/o an AP/FD. Gimme a break. No ego involved, just go fly the thing by hand and get the passengers where they wanna go.

I'd wager that expressions like "weak sister" are drawn from ego. You're willing and I'm not.

Pull a PAX from said gate. Explain how things are usually done. Tell them about the weather and the lack of AP/FD and what that means. Impress upon them potential contingencies, workload, etc. etc.

They'll tell you the kids can wait to see grandma.

 

[777forever]

This was a purely hypothetical situation I came up with. Just wanted to get more experienced pilots opinions.

 

[30West]

Automation and other technology is there to help mitigate threats and make the flight safer. The airlines functioned before all of this-but was it as safe? Look at accident rates from back then and get back to me. I'm not saying it was unsafe in this case, but if the crew felt it is beyond their limits you have to trust them-that's another part of being a professional airline plot.

Actually Human Error as a percentage of accident causes has stayed pretty constant between 45-56% since the 1940s.
Technology hasn't necessarily mitigated it, all it has done is change the way we as humans manage to d##k things up in the cockpit. The big risk in this scenario is the way we are trained to fly. The emphasis is no longer on the basics, but more towards systems management. Raw data hand flying could be trained to extreme proficiency in newhire, upgrade and recurrent simulator curricula. But that adds to the training footprint, and most airlines simply don't want to pay the extra cost. Kind of scary really. All we can do is try to hand fly to the extent that company policy and workload allows, so that days like this don't put an airline crew out of the "comfort zone".

 

[Freebrd]

Now APU deferred another matter NO WAY Im going :beer: