Would you take the plane?

[777forever]

30 west I don't think handflying is an issue for most line pilots. It's flying raw data approaches in imc to mins because it's something we rarely,if ever have to do. It's up to each pilot to make sure they remain proficient in raw data instrument flying according to the FOM. But it isn't something that is ever tested (from an approach perspective) in recurrent. So I wouldn't fault a captain for refusing to do something he isn't comfortable with.

 

[30West]

30 west I don't think handflying is an issue for most line pilots. It's flying raw data approaches in imc to mins because it's something we rarely,if ever have to do. It's up to each pilot to make sure they remain proficient in raw data instrument flying according to the FOM. But it isn't something that is ever tested (from an approach perspective) in recurrent. So I wouldn't fault a captain for refusing to do something he isn't comfortable with.

My point exactly. In an ideal world, things like raw data approaches would be trained as much as the gee whiz stuff during all phases of training. But as we all know, the world "airline" and "ideal" don't appear together in many places anymore.

 

[taxi1wire]

What kind of Pilot's have we created? No autopilot/no flight director and they want to stay home?
For years regionals consisted of aircraft with no autopilots and no flight directors on board-remember the Beach 99's Metroliners and Beach 1900's etc.
Often the copilot side only had a repeater (remember those-no OBS just a CDI needle) and the FO flew every other leg to whatever the weather was.
I flew many years at a Major and this was a nonevent.
I wasn't concerned about our profession until I read this.
Now I know why management takes advantage of the "hired help".

 

[CX880]

30 west I don't think handflying is an issue for most line pilots. It's flying raw data approaches in imc to mins because it's something we rarely,if ever have to do. It's up to each pilot to make sure they remain proficient in raw data instrument flying according to the FOM. But it isn't something that is ever tested (from an approach perspective) in recurrent. So I wouldn't fault a captain for refusing to do something he isn't comfortable with.

That's the whole point, if you can't do it on a normal day, how are you going to do it when the S hits the fan? Take the flight so that you can become familiar with raw data. It's not like it's single pilot PIC where you're juggling all kinds of things. You're just putting the little triangle on the horizon and keeping the wings level. If you can't do that raw data then you shouldn't be flying at all.

 

[buscap]

Ego? you crazy, and as far as passengers are concerned, yeah, sure the passenegrs would love getting cancelled 'cause weak sister is afraid to fly w/o an AP/FD. Gimme a break. No ego involved, just go fly the thing by hand and get the passengers where they wanna go.

Ok, so I'm a vajayjay.

We are what we eat, they say!

 

[mesaba13]

I had a family member who wrenched for NWA for many years and said many a Captain would not even take an aircraft with a deferred AP from msp to fargo. (no one even thought about questioning them)

The problem here is that our companies don't want us doing raw data unless its VFR, but will defer the autopilot and flight director and tell you to take it into bad weather. Therefore, how are you suppose to stay current without breaking SOP?

Most pilots should be able to safely fly raw data in the event the craps hits the fan and you lose some aircraft electric systems etc. But like other things in aviation, trouble finds us easy enough so why go looking for it?

I would take an aircraft without an AP in almost any situation, but going without the AP and FD would require looking at the whole picture.

 

[propilot]

Those of you who think it unsafe to go should probably get out of your barbie jets and try flying round gauge airplanes where the only automation is the gray matter between your ears. The only issue I see with the flight is lack of RVSM capability.

 

[WSurf]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

The question is why wouldn't you take it????? There's two pilots.... Share the workload! Whats the big deal? I've done it. Does it suck? Hell ya, but your qualified to do it all. So deal with it and go!!

 

[CA1900]

If you can't fly an ILS to minimums without computer assistance, you need to find another line of work. If you're too fatigued to do the trip without the autopilot, then someone else should be flying it, with or without the AP.

I'd go without the autopilot, but not without the flight director. You can all act like you're superpilots, but the facts state none of you are as good as the 'puter.

You've clearly never watched a Primus 1000 try to intercept and fly an ILS. It's worse than your worst instrument student. Out of stirsticks for your coffee? Push APP and let the airplane stir it for you.

 

[DeucesWild]

If you can't fly an ILS to minimums without computer assistance, you need to find another line of work. If you're too fatigued to do the trip without the autopilot, then someone else should be flying it, with or without the AP.

Absolutely. I am amazed and saddened how many of my peers stated they would not accept an aircraft without an A/P and F/D. If you don't have the skill or confidence to fly the airplane, you need to find a new line of work. We are professionals. We are paid to fly the airplane. If you can not provide that service, you are doing your employer a disservice.

Flying without an ap/fd is not unsafe or dangerous, unless you have allowed your skills to be diminished because you always use the ap/fd. If that is the case, I suggest you begin turning the automation off when below 29K feet, and relearning skills that you should not have allowed yourself to lose.

Hand flying a CRJ to minimums is a piece of cake. If you can not do it, or are unwilling to do it, you need to find a job that you are suited for.

 

[Flyer1015]

I'd go. At our CRJ airline, 2 Flight Directors, 1 can be in-op but 1 must be operable. Otherwise, it is a no-go for both Flight directors in-op (per our MEL book).

So, you still have at least one Flight Director. Just go. If you can't fly the airplane with no autopilot (yes, even in the soup), and if you can't fly with no flight director, then you really are a video game player/manipulator, not a pilot. Stick and rudder skills are missing.

 

[Flyer1015]

I don't care about the autopilot defers, the FD deferred, or the FMS deferred. My biggest pet peeve MEL is the loo! There's only one lav, don't freakin take that away from us!

 

[Draginass]

Most 121 ops specs limit non-autopilot/non-FD approaches to 250' DA and no less than 2400 RVR.

Also, it depends on if management has been slow rolling my contract negotiations.

 

[embpic1]

Can you comply with the MEL? If yes then go. Do your job. Take turns flying if you get tired during cruise.

 

[IBNAV8R]

I'd go without the autopilot, but not without the flight director. You can all act like you're superpilots, but the facts state none of you are as good as the 'puter.

I take exception to this. It is for this reason that I DO fly raw data at times. No superpilot here but yes, I AM as good as the 'puter. I just gotta put in the effort. If you CAN'T fly without a flight director, I submit you have lost your scan don't belong in the front office.

 

[Flyprdu]

Out of stirsticks for your coffee? Push APP and let the airplane stir it for you.

Quote of the week!

 

[WSurf]

I take exception to this. It is for this reason that I DO fly raw data at times. No superpilot here but yes, I AM as good as the 'puter. I just gotta put in the effort. If you CAN'T fly without a flight director, I submit you have lost your scan don't belong in the front office.

I think its funny when someone says they can fly the plane better then the computer!! ahahahahah... Love that, "I AM as good as the 'puter".
Sorry, but no ur not!!

 

[AWACoff]

The vast majority of posters on this thread would never have passed training at Great Lakes. How many fatal accidents has Great Lakes been found at fault for....hmm... They routinely have 1500hr captains flying with 250hr FOs. They fly in the Rockies. The answer to the previous question: ZERO.

 

[mesaba13]

Okay hotshot great for you but many of us already did that kind of flying before the airlines and didn't crash either!

 

[bri5150]

AP deferred, no problem. FD deferred, no go. The fact that I have never been trained by the company, and never been checked without a FD makes my decision. If it isn't important enough for training, then we don't need to do it. Just to add a twist to this situation, what if there was only an NDB approach available, and the weather was at the NDB minimums?