Would you take the plane?

[Freebrd]

Are you going to declare an emergency if the black box craps out in flight?.

Has happened. asa crew (riddle guys) took off outa JFK lost FMS and declared emrgency back to JFK :blush:

 

[WSurf]

However if I'm focusing I can fly an ILS better than the autopilot.

So you gotta really focus to fly an ILS? Don't focus to hard on that FD! However from Point A to Point B I am sorry, there's none of us that can fly the airplane better thenl "George".

 

[rettofly]

Actually Human Error as a percentage of accident causes has stayed pretty constant between 45-56% since the 1940s.
Technology hasn't necessarily mitigated it, all it has done is change the way we as humans manage to d##k things up in the cockpit. The big risk in this scenario is the way we are trained to fly. The emphasis is no longer on the basics, but more towards systems management. Raw data hand flying could be trained to extreme proficiency in newhire, upgrade and recurrent simulator curricula. But that adds to the training footprint, and most airlines simply don't want to pay the extra cost. Kind of scary really. All we can do is try to hand fly to the extent that company policy and workload allows, so that days like this don't put an airline crew out of the "comfort zone".

If the company does not require its pilots to demonstrate proficiency in raw data / noFD flying to ILS minimums, wouldn't the GOM require higher minimus to dispatch, or prohibit dispatch?

 

[rettofly]

What kind of Pilot's have we created? No autopilot/no flight director and they want to stay home?
For years regionals consisted of aircraft with no autopilots and no flight directors on board-remember the Beach 99's Metroliners and Beach 1900's etc.
Often the copilot side only had a repeater (remember those-no OBS just a CDI needle) and the FO flew every other leg to whatever the weather was.
I flew many years at a Major and this was a nonevent.
I wasn't concerned about our profession until I read this.
Now I know why management takes advantage of the "hired help".

Not to mention the DO228 and EMB110.
I trained raw data to mins at every initial /type rating / recurrent for 12 years. Is that not being done in the regionals? If it's not trained... don't do it.

 

[ackattacker]

So you gotta really focus to fly an ILS?

Nah, when I hand fly an ILS I usually like to eat a sandwich and chat about the bid system. WTF, go back to reading your newspaper and complaining about your pay. Relax, the autopilot's got you covered.

 

[rettofly]

I agree that the flight director is much more of an issue than the autopilot. I would probably take the flight with a VERY solid alternate and I would be one and done on the approach. If I didn't get in on the first try I would be out of there and wouldn't force the issue. I don't remember the last time I shot a raw data ILS in the sim.

This makes my head want to explode. In 4 years of Part 135 ops on CE550/560 and 5 years on P180, both of which have a very fine AP/FD setup, every training cycle included raw data hand flying to mins.. Sometimes they even pulled an engine just to make it interesting (not on the check ride, though). Even got to do it on the backup gauges a time or three.

 

[RJLoser]

Sadly, there are CAs who *refuse* to let [any and all] FOs from handflying raw data, and do not do it themselves either.

Whaaat? Where?

 

[BOX OFFICE]

Probably because your brain is a 1/3 the size of a male according to the government scientist Dr Yamuka he has proved it.

That may be the case, but even with my tiny brain, I can go to a bar and drink free all night. Think about it.

 

[777forever]

Can't speak for all regionals but Raw data approaches to mins is not a requirement on any checkride at ASA. It is possible to go years or even your entire career at ASA without shooting a raw data approach. Last raw data approach I did was 2 years ago on a clear VFR day into AGS on CR2 IOE when the Captain told me to do it for practice and make it a habit a couple times a month.

 

[Raoul Duke]

This is a symptom of the PFT generation (at least some of you). Hand flying an airplane is a skill and too many newly minted regional pilots have little experience hand flying an airplane with passengers on board. It (almost) makes you miss the days of the Mighty B-1900 - no autopilot, little automation and some of the best flying I have ever done.

 

[777forever]

This is a symptom of the PFT generation (at least some of you). Hand flying an airplane is a skill and too many newly minted regional pilots have little experience hand flying an airplane with passengers on board. It (almost) makes you miss the days of the Mighty B-1900 - no autopilot, little automation and some of the best flying I have ever done.

Well with the 1900 you had no choice!

The real symptoms are the companies. The company does not want to spend money training people to hand fly raw data. Its quicker and cheaper to train us to be autopilot zombies. Like someone said before, at least one US major doesn't allow raw data approaches, and I know Emirates prohibits handflying above 500ft AGL. I heard Delta 777 pilots aren't allowed to turn the autothrottles off.

I'm proud to say I've completed one flight on the 700 from take off to touchdown raw data with no flight director....in the sim during my ASA interview

 

[SLUF4]

personally i usually always handfly up to 10k or 18k depending on my mood and maybe 1/4 of the time that's raw data. all I'm saying is I'd look at the big picture in this case and make my decision. just because I can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea. it's up to the pilots to make the decision-i don't let the MEL make my go/no-go decision.

 

[777forever]

personally i usually always handfly up to 10k or 18k depending on my mood and maybe 1/4 of the time that's raw data. all I'm saying is I'd look at the big picture in this case and make my decision. just because I can do it doesn't mean it's a good idea. it's up to the pilots to make the decision-i don't let the MEL make my go/no-go decision.

You handfly the rnav departure outta ATL raw data too? Flew a trip with one captain that did that and he was damn good at it. I was impressed. In fact, he flew EVERY leg raw data up to cruise.

 

[SLUF4]

No, you can't do RNAV departures raw data-thinking they'll be making us use A/P on those soon.

 

[ackattacker]

Can't speak for all regionals but Raw data approaches to mins is not a requirement on any checkride at ASA.

If you read the practical test standard for the ATP, you need to shoot one precision and one non-precision approach to mins without use of the autopilot. Whether you are allowed to use the FD is specifically stated to be up to the discretion of the examiner. Also the examiner is "encouraged" to make you do it on backup or reversionary instruments as applicable.

What I'm trying to say is that when you go in to take an ATP test you could be required to demonstrate a hand-flown, raw data approach using the peanut gyro. If you no longer have the skill to do that, you are no longer qualified to perform the job of an ATP. End of story.

 

[LearLove]

You're capt of CRJ200. Weather at destination is showing 200 ft ceilings and 1 1/2 mile vis. X-wind of 10 knts gusting to 15. Autopilot and flight director deferred. 380 nm flight. ILS fully operational on all runways. Would you take the airplane?

This is a result of the post 911 flight school puppy mill kiddies who went right to a 121 RJ FO and never got the PIC decision making exp. from FAR Part 135 or Mil flying.

 

[Kaman]

Hand-fly ILS...to lowest mins IAW OPSPECS (RVR 1800). ALL Four EFIS tubes out...Aileron and Elevator disconnect handles PULLED...Approach accomplished on the back-up gauges and #1 NAV/CDI OBS thingy...Did it in the SIM as an SIC new-hire...yawwwwwnnnn...OK, I have 3000 hours in the 1900 and over 2000 of it in the left-seat. Am I superpilot? Oh HECK NO! All of the above scenario was way over and above a worst-case. I commend our instructor for inducing this emergency and he did for the point of building our confidence and comfort level with flying this airplane. And, I might add this was at CJC...
I about had coffee come out of my nose when I read about the ASA crew that declared an emergency because the "box" crapped out. A Mesa crew with a couple of cracks in the seats did the same thing coming out of LGA a few years back...WTF??? Guess they didn't come from "Air-Middy" or they would have just taken turns filing their nails and continued to their destination.

 

[FO 4 Life]

Don't look at the MEL whether you can go or not. What does you Ops Specs, AOM, and FOM say about weather and what is required?

200' ceiling and low vis, the a/c wouldn't even be scheduled for the flight at my company. Doesn't mean someone can't do it, there's just a lot of other variables.

As far as flying an ILS better than the autopilot, I haven't seen someone hand fly an autoland. HGS, yes, but not an autoland.

 

[ackattacker]

As far as flying an ILS better than the autopilot, I haven't seen someone hand fly an autoland. HGS, yes, but not an autoland.

I've seen it done in the sim, 0/0. The guy flying was a 20,000 hour AA Capt and when we turned the vis back up on the sim we were right on centerline. We even had a 10 kt crosswind dialed up. He was just showing off, obviously.

 

[at7driver]

less than 4000 rvr or 3/4 mile require the FD to be operable, autopilot is req'd if available. FOM 2-1.11

be what's legal is not always safe, right. If you're not comfortable with it don't take that plane.