Would NetJets Strike If...?

[RTRHD]

Ok, I'll bite. Who has the best deal in the frational industry??

:beer: Another little frac that just operates Gulfstreams.

 

[GVFlyer]

:beer: Another little frac that just operates Gulfstreams.

Yep, if I was going to a fractional NJI would be the only one I'd consider.

GV

 

[flyjetspeed]

:beer: Another little frac that just operates Gulfstreams.

I'll second that! Or third!

 

[DO-82 driver]

Just out of curiosity, how do you guys feel about the Falcon 7X's going to NJE and having those folks do more trans-Atlantic and long haul flights out of Europe?

 

[Lone Star 31a]

Lonestar,
If you knew more about Bogart, you would probably join in a the snide comments. Believe me he deserves everything he gets and then some.

I don't know Bogart from anyone else here. When I see a question that has legitimacy to it and no serious answers to follow what would you think if you were in my shoes? So what if most of the readers here don't like Bogart. I may not like him either if I took the time to research his posts. Gotta admit though. He had a good question.

 

[gunfyter]

Its a stupid question.

Just as he intended it to be.

 

[netjetwife]

Which is why I gave a serious answer to the best of my ability. Trying to properly define "struck work" and whether or not a pilot is crossing a picket line are issues that are decided by union leadership with the aid of lawyers versed in the RLA.

Glass, a couple of counterpoints--Bogart's question dealt specifically with Flex or FLOPS pilots, not others like FedEx. Considering that those frac groups have put up with a lot for little money I don't see them striking over work conditions or issues other than pay. You imply that people are greedy and will continue to strike for higher and higher wages. I don't think well compensated pilots would do that to their families, but I do think they might be very concerned over work rules that negatively impact their QOL or a scope issue that could allow their jobs to be taken away.

I don't doubt that answers to complicated labor issues are out there, even if they aren't apparent to those of us posting here. It's a specialty of the law and unions like the Teamsters employ those lawyers for just that reason--to answer the tough questions.

RTRHD, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder... The NJ pilots are bringing their wages up, plus they have a written contract and dedicated representation should they need it. To some that counts for a lot.

Oddly (and sadly) I didn't even think of NJI. Perhaps it is because of the perceived "us" versus "them" attitude that holds the NJI pilots aloof from lower-paid frac pilots? Do you identify with the pilots of Flex, FLOPS, NJA, etc and see them as your peers? If so, I didn't realize that. My apologies for unintentionally excluding you if you count yourself as part of their group.

 

[FRACTRASH]

Its a stupid question.

Just as he intended it to be.

I don't think it's a stupid question at all. I know Bogie, and he was wondering, as was I, what would really happen if the situation he mentioned really happened. You can't compare ALPA with the 1108. I thought the 1108 was a tighter group. When the truckers strike, they all strike no matter what company they work for. Will this happen with all the fracs (except CS of course)? From what I read here with the 1108 and NetJets, should a strike happen with Flex or Flops (should they join the 1108), NetJets would let them on their own to fend for themselves. A bunch of union blow hards you are with no spine to stick with your union brothers and sisters. Go back to the 70's and the teamsters and see how Hoffa handled them.

 

[glasspilot]

Glass, a couple of counterpoints--Bogart's question dealt specifically with Flex or FLOPS pilots, not others like FedEx. Considering that those frac groups have put up with a lot for little money I don't see them striking over work conditions or issues other than pay. You imply that people are greedy and will continue to strike for higher and higher wages. I don't think well compensated pilots would do that to their families, but I do think they might be very concerned over work rules that negatively impact their QOL or a scope issue that could allow their jobs to be taken away.

You said before and you said it again, "well paid pilots won't strike". Well, what's well paid? FedEx pilots make a TON of cash. (Even compared to the leading frac company) My point was and is that THEY were picketing just 8 months ago. Are they a different breed of pilot than us? No. You have your head wrapped around some figure of pay and say that's what's fair. Well, what if your company paid 300,000 per year in the left seat and 225,000 in the right. And at the same time the company was making money hand over fist. They couldn't burn it fast enough. All managers were high six figures, upper level managers were 1.3mil or more and all officers were over 2.3 mill per year. Trust me, the pilots would want their share....just like FedEx pilots. You need to get your preconceived notion of what "fair wage" is cause it's based on nothing.

 

[Humphreybogart]

I don't know Bogart from anyone else here. When I see a question that has legitimacy to it and no serious answers to follow what would you think if you were in my shoes? So what if most of the readers here don't like Bogart. Gotta admit though. He had a good question.

You know Lonestar, I bet you would like me. You're seeing what I'm seeing in this post, the NJ people will preach their mighty 1108, but their not willing to stand up for their brothers and sisters of the 1108 (should they decide to join). As long as everything is going smoothly, the union is great, but don't let things go south because then Flex and/Flops will be on thier own. Sounds like you don't have a very strong union, or puppets from NJ involved in the union to make it worth while. Alot of hot air from the NetJet and 1108 group.

 

[gunfyter]

I don't think it's a stupid question at all. I know Bogie, and he was wondering, as was I, what would really happen if the situation he mentioned really happened. You can't compare ALPA with the 1108. I thought the 1108 was a tighter group. When the truckers strike, they all strike no matter what company they work for. Will this happen with all the fracs (except CS of course)? From what I read here with the 1108 and NetJets, should a strike happen with Flex or Flops (should they join the 1108), NetJets would let them on their own to fend for themselves. A bunch of union blow hards you are with no spine to stick with your union brothers and sisters. Go back to the 70's and the teamsters and see how Hoffa handled them.

It is a stupid question.

Yes if CS joins 1108 ... and goes on strike. All Teamsters will strike against CS.

Going on strike against NJ does not help striking pilots at another company. On the contrary... it would help management at that company.

 

[x402]

I don't know Bogart from anyone else here. When I see a question that has legitimacy to it and no serious answers to follow what would you think if you were in my shoes? So what if most of the readers here don't like Bogart. I may not like him either if I took the time to research his posts. Gotta admit though. He had a good question.

The question was answered multiple times in this thread. Is english a second language?
If I were in your shoes, I'd stay away from unions. If flame baiters like HB rock your world you'd end up crossing a picket line, if it ever did come to that.

No it was a stupid question that he knew the answer to, he's been on this board for a long time and knows the deal with RLA/Mediator.

 

[Humphreybogart]

It is a stupid question.

Yes if CS joins 1108 ... and goes on strike. All Teamsters will strike against CS.

Going on strike against NJ does not help striking pilots at another company. On the contrary... it would help management at that company.

Dude, you better put out the joint and stop talking jibberish, I hope you don't have to fly soon.

 

[RTRHD]

[=netjetwife;1147672]RTRHD, beauty lies in the eyes of the beholder... The NJ pilots are bringing their wages up, plus they have a written contract and dedicated representation should they need it. To some that counts for a lot.

Oddly (and sadly) I didn't even think of NJI. Perhaps it is because of the perceived "us" versus "them" attitude that holds the NJI pilots aloof from lower-paid frac pilots? Do you identify with the pilots of Flex, FLOPS, NJA, etc and see them as your peers? If so, I didn't realize that. My apologies for unintentionally excluding you if you count yourself as part of their group.[/quote]

Of course I see everyone as the same. We are all just trying to get by as best we can.

Hey Gun I apologize for jumping on your post the other night. (I hate anything to do with Challengers)

 

[gunfyter]

Why no I don't... I am on vacation.

Now why don't you put down your joint, and explain to us all how Striking against NJ would support pilots striking at another company?

And if you come up with something...

... how you would propose the pilots at NJ would get RELEASED by the NLRB to strike against NJ? Do you think the NRLB would release us just because FLOPS, FJ, or CS had been released to Strike?

I will wait for your response

 

[gunfyter]

Hey Gun I apologize for jumping on your post the other night. (I hate anything to do with Challengers)

According to the bogus articles in BCA on NBAA convention that GV posted... Flexjets is booming and NJ is lamenting losses. So maybe I was being prescient.

 

[dash_trash]

Mulitiple Shares

Here's a thought regarding "struck work." An owner has multiple shares across company lines. I know of a few who have shares in both Options and NJ. Lets say they use Options (BeechJet) for the shorter domestic flights, such as ACK - HPN, but they have a Falcon with NJ for the longer flights like coast to coast or Europe.

Now, Options is on strike and they want to take the flight from ACK to HPN. Would the Falcon crew be aware of their preferece in aircraft? Probably not, but this is a very real scenerio.

More than likely, you would see NJ pilots walking the line (on their own time) in support of their fellow 1108 brothers and sisters.

Just my $.02

 

[Lone Star 31a]

You know Lonestar, I bet you would like me. You're seeing what I'm seeing in this post, the NJ people will preach their mighty 1108, but their not willing to stand up for their brothers and sisters of the 1108 (should they decide to join). As long as everything is going smoothly, the union is great, but don't let things go south because then Flex and/Flops will be on thier own. Sounds like you don't have a very strong union, or puppets from NJ involved in the union to make it worth while. Alot of hot air from the NetJet and 1108 group.

Easy there, Bogart. I'm not defending you or your ideas. You had a very good question. No one wanted to answer until NJWife finally did along with a few others after her post. Somehow I get bashed for wanting to know the answer to your question. It does pose another question. If one frax were to strike and the others didn't (All under the 1108) wouldn't the others be line crossers? Here is my thought. Some contract owners have multiple contracts or ownerships in the frax. ie. One guy may have a fraction ownership at NJA and also at Flex. NJA strikes. Owner calls Flex. Gets his ride with Flex. Does everyone see the picture I am painting? This is by no means flamebaiting. This is a real situation that may happen. Or, in my case. If a frax strikes and they need owners moved. They call their network of 135's. Are you guys gonna call me a line crosser even though I am not in your union? I know this has been partially answered as a "No" but really. What will you say to me when I fly one of your owners when you are striking?

 

[Lone Star 31a]

The question was answered multiple times in this thread. Is english a second language?
If I were in your shoes, I'd stay away from unions. If flame baiters like HB rock your world you'd end up crossing a picket line, if it ever did come to that.

No it was a stupid question that he knew the answer to, he's been on this board for a long time and knows the deal with RLA/Mediator.

If you had read early in the thread I acknowledged the answer given. Nope. English is the first of four languages. That aside, no, it was a good question. It just happened to be from someone, it seems, no one likes. Had I posed the question I bet the responses would have been totally different. However, I had to stoop to the level of most everyone else to learn what the Union action would and should be. Yes, curiosity killed the cat. How else am I to learn what the answer is unless I ask? My fault is that I don't know much about unions. Not much need for it where I work. It is good, however, to keep myself educated as to what is going on in this industry. So bash me if you like. My skin is tough. Just remember that I'm just asking questions that can easily be answered by those who know the answers and are willing to not be condesending.

 

[x402]

Easy there, Bogart. I'm not defending you or your ideas. You had a very good question. No one wanted to answer until NJWife finally did along with a few others after her post. Somehow I get bashed for wanting to know the answer to your question. It does pose another question. If one frax were to strike and the others didn't (All under the 1108) wouldn't the others be line crossers? Here is my thought. Some contract owners have multiple contracts or ownerships in the frax. ie. One guy may have a fraction ownership at NJA and also at Flex. NJA strikes. Owner calls Flex. Gets his ride with Flex. Does everyone see the picture I am painting? This is by no means flamebaiting. This is a real situation that may happen. Or, in my case. If a frax strikes and they need owners moved. They call their network of 135's. Are you guys gonna call me a line crosser even though I am not in your union? I know this has been partially answered as a "No" but really. What will you say to me when I fly one of your owners when you are striking?

You must have balls of stone, the majority of fractionals have halted work, picket lines everywhere, don't you think you will be remebered? Ask the Eastern scabs how well things worked out for them, and yes I know that scab only applies to Union members crossing lines, but I'm glad you have no interest in any Union shop, it just makes things easier.
We certainly couldn't hurt you at your current place of employment, hope it meets your long term goals in life. I know NJA meets mine.

 

[Lone Star 31a]

You must have balls of stone, the majority of fractionals have halted work, picket lines everywhere, don't you think you will be remebered? Ask the Eastern scabs how well things worked out for them, and yes I know that scab only applies to Union members crossing lines, but I'm glad you have no interest in any Union shop, it just makes things easier.
We certainly couldn't hurt you at your current place of employment, hope it meets your long term goals in life. I know NJA meets mine.

I am well aware that there isn't a threat of a strike at this time. I'd have to live under stone to be ignorant of that. I am referring to a very real senerio that may happen in the future.

Ok. I'll just go back to my bong and take a long drag now.

 

[wolfpackpilot]

A simple observation here:

All of you are blurring the lines between part 121 Air Carriers and your local Kroger Food Stores.

Fractional Aircraft Ownership companies are not only a new ball field for management/pilots, but also for the Government. Just because frac pilots are union doesnt mean "labor issues" are going to handled the same as they are in the airlines... by the unions, the managements or the NMB.

All of this is uncharted waters folks. And you'll just have to wait and see.

FRAC PILOT PRO's:

small number of companies in the business, limited availability... thus a strike could do real damage.

MANAGEMENT PRO's:

99.9% of owners are die hard business people (and or Republicans) who in the long run dont care about pilots, much less the unions that represent them.

 

[RNObased]

A simple observation here:

All of you are blurring the lines between part 121 Air Carriers and your local Kroger Food Stores.

Fractional Aircraft Ownership companies are not only a new ball field for management/pilots, but also for the Government. Just because frac pilots are union doesnt mean "labor issues" are going to handled the same as they are in the airlines... by the unions, the managements or the NMB.

All of this is uncharted waters folks. And you'll just have to wait and see.

FRAC PILOT PRO's:

small number of companies in the business, limited availability... thus a strike could do real damage.

MANAGEMENT PRO's:

99.9% of owners are die hard business people (and or Republicans) who in the long run dont care about pilots, much less the unions that represent them.

Very true, Wolf Pack.

Also Bogart, your question is BS for one simple reason. The only pilots that are a part of 1108 are the NJA pilots. So until the time that another group of pilots joins 1108, it is a question that is moot. But it did get the response you wanted and that was to stir up some shi!. Congrats, loser.

 

[RNObased]

NetJets would let them on their own to fend for themselves. A bunch of union blow hards you are with no spine to stick with your union brothers and sisters. Go back to the 70's and the teamsters and see how Hoffa handled them.

Ok, smart guy. No spine, huh. Well I think you need to thank a teamster pilot the next time you see one. Why, because you are spending the raise that OUR CONTRACT GOT YOU!!!!! The reason we got the contract and you got your raise is, because we have more of a spine then you can even imagine. You are another of pilots on the is board that I thank god I don't have to share a cockpit with.

Now until the time that another pilot group joins 1108, a big IF. It is a moot point. However using your flawed logic, every time United strikes, every group that is ALPA should stike. Don't think that is allowed under the RLA.

 

[dash_trash]

Why, because you are spending the raise that OUR CONTRACT GOT YOU!!!!! The reason we got the contract and you got your raise is, because we have more of a spine then you can even imagine.

Couldn't agree more. I hope more of the Options pilots start to see the light, and may I ad a thanks to the NJ group for thier continued support.

 

[FRACTRASH]

As far as NJ getting CS the raise, I don't think so! Our management was working on a better compensation package for our pilots, so CS could be a career and not just a job. There goal was to keep pilots on the property long term. If CS doesn't have a industry leading management team, then why doesn't all the other fractionals management just do the same and take care of there employees. Why does everyone have to fight so hard to improve there quality of life and compensation package. As, far as I know CS was the only company to truly take care of there employees. I didn't have to fight for any of it and that feels good!!

 

[Diesel]

I didn't have to fight for any of it and that feels good!!

It must feel good to be able to ride on the coatails of others instead of being leaders.

I'm not a hard core union guy but anybody can see that 1108 got CS their raise. Yeah yeah we all heard that CS was "working on it" yet it didn't come out to right after ours? The company might have a good managment team but they are smart enough to know they had to react to the NJA contract.

HB is just trying to fan the flames. The question is would I participate in a sympathy strike? No I wouldn't, on my work time....... in my off time i'd support them at the pickets. You don't see United striking when American is striking. 1108 is the common union but we are seperate companies and if an owner has a share in both how am I supposed to know? I could care less. Maybe I read the threads wrong but thats the way I see it.

 

[citationsarejun]

FRACTRASH well said what a great job to have. Not in love with the product but couldn't be happier working here.

 

[GerryG]

"I didn't have to fight for any of it and that feels good!!"

No doubt it does. The 1108 did it for you. Thing is the timing of that raise calls your logic into question. Also the fact that no management not even the most magnanimous, would give a big raise like that without external motivation. Yes I think your management was wise in this instance, even brilliant perhaps. They were able to give you that raise and in the process avoid the additional cost of all of the other things contained in a contract, like the one NJ has and FLOPS soon will have.

 

[Diesel]

lonestar i answered your question