Will SWA and AT truly merge?

[Kharma Police]

No one is too worried about the most senior SWA guys--no matter what they will be well off. It's the next 90% who are very concerned with what happens with the SLI.

So, are you saying that Kwanzaa goes junior or senior? Because, it's kind of a big thing down here in Atlanta. Hopefully, Southwest will continue our sponsorship of, "The Feast of the Harvest Day Parade" down Peachtree Street.

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Timeout:


Lots of people here that are taking themselves far too seriously. All that had been established here over and over again is that:


1. The Airtran guys feel like relative seniority is the only fair and equitable solution. They are sure that is what they will be awarded in arbitration.

2. The SWA guys feel that relative seniority would be a windfall for the Airtran guys given the age and contractual differances between the companys.

3. The Airtran guys don't feel that the contractual gains will be a factor in the arbitration and the SWA guys disagree.

Reality check:

Nothing is going to be solved on this forum. No one is going to change anyones mind.

This thing will get resolved and there is a good chance it will be in arbitration. There are 100s of ways that an arbitrator could look at this and for anyone who is not an attorney that specializes in airline RLA airline seniority list mergers in a post Bond McCaskill environment to predict an outcome is just silly.

That being said whatever the outcome of the SLI is the worst thing we can do long term for our collective carriers is to have this thing turn out like USAir/AWA. Soon we will all have to live in the same house and it will be far better if we choose to get along.

Ghetto

 

[Just thinking]

If I were SWA I would not worry too much.... If our TA is any bench mark of coming attractions we will be cleaning the lavs at SWA and paying to get trained.........

 

[OldManPilot]

I believe this will be worked out without an arbitrator. We both have intelligent and level-headed people working on this. I think they will work it out.

 

[Richard Gozinya]

You guys are right, I don't want to belong to any pilot group that would have me on the seniority list! You guys enjoy SWA.

AMF

 

[GuppyWN]

I believe that ant pilot at SWA with a seniority date prior to the beginning of AirTran should be untouched at the top of the list. I believe this is 848 pilots?

I'll bite. So what's your ratio after that?

Gup

 

[SWAdude]

Yeah, Karma Police got the best of me. Sorry guys. I bit off on the trolls bait. I started this with some realities about our pilot group that seemed to be missing from this thread.

A full staple in reality would be worse than us having to live with relative seniority.

On the true discussion front, why is it fair to give the 93 hires and senior their seniority but DOH is not good enough for the rest of the SWA group?

How about DOH with some seat protection language?

 

[Ty Webb]

Ty,

Let's say, by the biggest imagination we can come up with, you get relative seniorty.

Say all of your "senior" dogs bid to our most junior base. You just TOOK seniority from guys that have been here 20 years longer than you.
Not if an equal number of lines were added
That's a windfall.

All your "new" senior dogs bid the best vacation that I could have held last year.

That's a windfall.Not if an equal number of vacation days are added

All your "new" senior dogs bid the best lines that I could have held last year.
Not if an equal number of lines were added
That's a windfall.

Training preferences.
Not if an equal number of slots were added
Windfall.

Gup

That's what I mean, Gup. If you add 138 airplanes and our understaffed pilot group to the mix, there will be an equal amount added to everything (or what is negotiated in the TA and JCBA plus newhires, so what are you losing?

 

[Kharma Police]

How about DOH with some seat protection language?

I think that sounds fair and reasonable. You guys have a 2 year fence restriction in your contract, correct? Can a senior pilot displace a junior pilot out of his domicile?

 

[FlyinGuy]

Ohhhh how nice! Kharma and SWAdude have just finished the SLI.

Reality check.......None of us knows how this will go down. Both NC's are going to spend the next 6 months to 2 years hammering out positions and running numbers. They are going to consult with the brightest (most expensive) attorneys and bankers around the country to build cases for their respective list. Eventually they will come to an agreement or an impasse. What ever the case....none of us knows how this will go down!!!

So with that everyone needs to chill and keep the blood pressure under control because this is the only sure shot.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqyZeUlE8U

 

[Kharma Police]

Ohhhh how nice! Kharma and SWAdude have just finished the SLI.

Reality check.......None of us knows how this will go down. Both NC's are going to spend the next 6 months to 2 years hammering out positions and running numbers. They are going to consult with the brightest (most expensive) attorneys and bankers around the country to build cases for their respective list. Eventually they will come to an agreement or an impasse. What ever the case....none of us knows how this will go down!!!

So with that everyone needs to chill and keep the blood pressure under control because this is the only sure shot.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqyZeUlE8U

That is all very true. I was just trying to be realistic in terms of what I felt was fair. This kind of option would be very complicated to implement, 20 years later, Northwest Orient and Republic pilots still have animosity regarding the Red Book and Green Book.

 

[SWAdude]

You guys have a 2 year fence restriction in your contract, correct?

No there is not.

Can a senior pilot displace a junior pilot out of his domicile?

I have no idea of specifics of language. I would just think that seat protection could have "some" guarantees.

 

[Cruncher]

Ty,

AAI operates more pilots per plane than SWA. Once, the AAI fleet are up to SWA usage rate, we have growth potential without the addition of additional pilots. Delay up the seniority list.

11.8 vs. 10.8 (using our numbers from 27 Sept). It's only 1 pilot per plane, but it equates to roughly 9% excess (over SWA's ratio).

What are we loosing? Well for one, SWA is an older group. Before the announcement, we all had a projection of our age-based attrition seniority. I am sure you can understand how injecting younger guys senior to SWA guys will forever slow a SWA pilot's progression up the seniority ladder (as the AAI will forever be senior to the SWA guy). IOW, the only thing we have to loose is seniority progression and that is the possibility AAI brings, further seniority delays.

If you can't understand that concept, you'll never understand why SWA guys get on here and start throwing down.

One thing I learned in my Corps days was to not email with anger. So I try to keep emotion out of my replies. But, you can't say AAI does not take anything from SWA guys. The potential to take very lucrative discretionary flying (as a 5th year FO, discretionary flying usually runs in the 1 - 1.5k / day range), monthly lines, vacation, upgrade date, IOW all the things seniority brings is further delayed.

The last couple years SWA has been in accumulation mode, saving huge amounts of money. We knew when the economy turned around we'll start growing again. Or so we thought. We have/had over 3 billion dollars ready to start growing again.

Then the Sept 27th announcement (or whatever the date was). Seniority progression just took another kick in the sack.

Look, I'm happy your guys are receiving enormous windfalls in pay and QOL. Some of your guys have just had their career expectations doubled. Your Captains are going to easily earn $80k more per year. FOs are looking at close to 100% improvements in annual compensation (even with the larger 401k match).

The SWA guys have little to look forward to, except for the possibility of further delays up the seniority ladder. We all wanted organic growth. We know we can do it.

I am at the base I want to be at. I get about my 10th choice in lines. Ditto vacation. The next thing for me (and many guys like me) is seat progression.

 

[dicko]

Ohhhh how nice! Kharma and SWAdude have just finished the SLI.

Reality check.......None of us knows how this will go down. Both NC's are going to spend the next 6 months to 2 years hammering out positions and running numbers. They are going to consult with the brightest (most expensive) attorneys and bankers around the country to build cases for their respective list. Eventually they will come to an agreement or an impasse. What ever the case....none of us knows how this will go down!!!

So with that everyone needs to chill and keep the blood pressure under control because this is the only sure shot.....http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JhqyZeUlE8U

No.

PCL128 will cave when he's offered a bag of cheetos and a steak. He'll throw people under busses for a back rub from Leo and some cheese. He's proven this to be 100 % true so far.

Thankfully we have ALPA on our side. They made all the difference during our long struggle.

Kharma ..... I told you so.

 

[ivauir]

That's what I mean, Gup. If you add 138 airplanes and our understaffed pilot group to the mix, there will be an equal amount added to everything (or what is negotiated in the TA and JCBA plus newhires, so what are you losing?

Ty,

You are overstaffed by our manning model AND the fact that you have pilots on furlough (voluntary or not you have more pilots than you have jobs)

It is unreasonable for you to think you will gain in EVERY area in this transaction.

 

[The Prussian]

Ty,

AAI operates more pilots per plane than SWA. Once, the AAI fleet are up to SWA usage rate, we have growth potential without the addition of additional pilots. Delay up the seniority list.

11.8 vs. 10.8 (using our numbers from 27 Sept). It's only 1 pilot per plane, but it equates to roughly 9% excess (over SWA's ratio).

What are we loosing? Well for one, SWA is an older group. Before the announcement, we all had a projection of our age-based attrition seniority. I am sure you can understand how injecting younger guys senior to SWA guys will forever slow a SWA pilot's progression up the seniority ladder (as the AAI will forever be senior to the SWA guy). IOW, the only thing we have to loose is seniority progression and that is the possibility AAI brings, further seniority delays.

If you can't understand that concept, you'll never understand why SWA guys get on here and start throwing down.

One thing I learned in my Corps days was to not email with anger. So I try to keep emotion out of my replies. But, you can't say AAI does not take anything from SWA guys. The potential to take very lucrative discretionary flying (as a 5th year FO, discretionary flying usually runs in the 1 - 1.5k / day range), monthly lines, vacation, upgrade date, IOW all the things seniority brings is further delayed.

The last couple years SWA has been in accumulation mode, saving huge amounts of money. We knew when the economy turned around we'll start growing again. Or so we thought. We have/had over 3 billion dollars ready to start growing again.

Then the Sept 27th announcement (or whatever the date was). Seniority progression just took another kick in the sack.

Look, I'm happy your guys are receiving enormous windfalls in pay and QOL. Some of your guys have just had their career expectations doubled. Your Captains are going to easily earn $80k more per year. FOs are looking at close to 100% improvements in annual compensation (even with the larger 401k match).

The SWA guys have little to look forward to, except for the possibility of further delays up the seniority ladder. We all wanted organic growth. We know we can do it.

I am at the base I want to be at. I get about my 10th choice in lines. Ditto vacation. The next thing for me (and many guys like me) is seat progression.

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

What he said!!! Rare clarity on FI...

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

I think that sounds fair and reasonable. You guys have a 2 year fence restriction in your contract, correct? Can a senior pilot displace a junior pilot out of his domicile?

Our current contract only specifies that a seperate ops can be in place no longer that 24 months in the event of a merger or aquisition. Under current bidding rules a senior pilot can not bump a junior pilot out of his seat or domicile unless the senior pilot was displaced.

 

[texman]

^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^ ^

what he said!!! Rare clarity on fi...

true!

 

[GuppyWN]

How about DOH with some seat protection language?

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

Wow.

 

[Lear70]

So you're cool with Airtran Captains that are 4 YEARS junior to our junior Captains taking that last of the Captain slots over 10 YEAR SWA FO's?

And you're cool with Craig having 1700 guys put in front of him?

Wow.

I'm not advocating taking any UPCOMING CA slots, but if you're talking about our CURRENT CA's losing their seats...? Even ONE of them?

Fences make good neighbors. Not saying they have to be forever, but certainly a good 2-3 years to start... especially if the MC starts getting away from a relative seniority integration and starts working on some kind of blended DOH/ratio slotting solution.