Why United Airlines will fail again

[Andy]

Remember TORQUE guys?

Enlighten me, please. I know that UAL's pilots have several skeletons in the closet. Does this have to do with the original Frontier?

 

[AAflyer]

You vote yes or no. There was no, Is this sustainable? box. The landscape was different in 2000. If you were even in aviation back then you might remember. There were two parties that signed the agreement. UAL and ALPA. Without both it would not have been valid. Dubo and Goodwin were not the biggest mental giants they liked to think they were.

Go AAhead and Bemoaan UAAL escaaping from Baankruptcy. The AA Daay is coming aand it maay not be so bright.

Typicaal AAer. Do you guys haave someon to staart you caars for you. Aafter the screw job you gave the TWAA people I would not be aable to sleep at night. Much less trust the straanger on the street.

You are pretty pathetic,

I ask you a simple question, and you come back with all types of dribble. You're professionalism does not represent the whole group of UAL, thank god.

As for me, I didn't purchase TWA, nor did I have anything to do with the integration. APA sought to protect their members, and ALPA (which I think failed, hence the lawsuit) pursued what was best for their members.

I remember where some of your pilots wanted to put the USAirways guys when that merger was a possibility. Pretty smug to come off judging the way you do.

If you do not want to answer the original question that is fine, but give me a break about what boxes where available to be checked.

AA

P.S. You seem to have the emotional stability of a teenager if AALL you cAAn do is use words with AA.

 

[AAflyer]

Do you really want to open this can of worms? OK, my first day at UAL was June 2000, completed training Sep 2000. I was unable to vote for C2K since I was on probation.
Mad Dog Dubinsky was the UAL MC. He was able to get (not the sharpest tool in the shed) Jimmy Goodwin, a 30-something year UAL employee who worked his way up from bag smashing or CS or something along those lines, instead of Bob Nardelli, whom Gerald Greenwald had chosen as his successor. The reason why Mad Dog wanted Jimmy Goodwin in there instead of Nardelli is that he knew Nardelli would be a tough negotiator against labor, whereas 'ol Jimmy would be a creampuff. Mad Dog was able to use his seat on the UAL BOD to nix Nardelli. UAL's loss, Home Depot's gain. (Of course G4G5 would spin this into Nardelli being told to hit the bricks at UAL and he had no where else to go other than the troubled Home Depot).
Mad Dog was able to leverage the dumba$$ decision to buy USAirways at a HEFTY premium at $60/sh into C2K negotiations. That's not to say that the decision to buy USAirways was bad at that time (that's a whole 'nuther can 'o worms; I'd need to save it for a different post). Greenwald had promised the pilots a seamless contract, but Jimmy was easily distracted by shiny objects (the USAirways acquisition), much like a certain poster on this board and told Mad Dog that Greenwald, not he, had promised a seamless contract.
'Ol Jimmy didn't know what hit him during the 'summer of love' and caved in to Mad Dog on just about everything.
Why did Mad Dog go for the 'money contract' (his words) and save the work rules for the next contract? Because Mad Dog hit age 60 a couple of years after C2K, which would set him up for a hefty lump sum & retirement check. And we, the UAL ALPA membership, fell for it.
I guess that the last laugh's on Mad Dog, since he choked the goose hard enough that retirees will no longer be getting golden eggs, him included.
While management is to blame for many fcukups at UAL, there are enough fingers pointing at the pilots for us to not have hands clean in the matter.

I don't think that most UAL pilots realized that C2K was unsustainable, even after summer of 2001. I was in Airbus training in the summer of 2001, and the guy next to me was also in a class at UAL (to this day, I don't know who he was and don't care). He yelled in the phone so loud at his wife that it was easy for me to hear his side of the conversations. In a nutshell, this guy was building a $1.5 million house for his bride, and had bid up to the largest equipment he could (ie bottom reserve pilot) so that they could afford it. She wanted $10K to go to Europe for the summer while he was in training. After a few days of this, the noise in the next room finally subsided; he caved. I wonder who she's sucking blood from nowadays.
As for me, I completed the process of dumping my money grubbing wife in April 2001. It cost me everything we had, but at least I got to keep my pension. :nuts: I was fortunate in that I didn't have any extra cash to blow on toys or anything else. My first year two paycheck was Oct 2001; I banked the entire pay raise.

Thank you for the rationale response, that is what I had originally thought, no one would accept a contract that they thought would seriously damage the company they worked for. Your co-worker (with the teen-age temper) had us assuming that everyone pretty much knew it was not sustainable. That didn't make much sense.

Once again, good luck. I have been furloughed from three other airlines, yet I have never been through a full blown BK, I can only imagine the nightmare it was.

regards,

AA

 

[32LT10]

You are pretty pathetic,


I remember where some of your pilots wanted to put the USAirways guys when that merger was a possibility. Pretty smug to come off judging the way you do.

.

Show me a merger where someone on both sides did not utter the staple thought. The big difference with UA and US is that the merger was never consumated. Had the integration occured it would have been dictated by ALPA merger policy and not a staple job. As for being smug I think you guys are the ones that come across as smug. How many TWA pilots are left at AA? How many TWA employees still have jobs at AA? You and your band of thieves ruined many a life at TWA and have no remorse in doing it.

If you want to exchange Q&A then how about answering the above? You fake your concern for the UAL pilots and the pension issue while you shived the TWA pilots. Again, typical.

 

[AAflyer]

Yes, you are right. Being hired at AA at the end of the 90s hold me responsible for the destruction of TWA. Me alone, stole the jobs of thousands of employees. To my understanding there are 400-500 still flying out of 2300+/ Had 9-11 not happened most likely all would still be here, and you would not be emerging from chpt 11.

Don't lecture me on ALPA merger policy. I have been ALPA. I have also seen pilot groups fom EAL, Braniff, Pan AM, treated like crap. You seem rather high and mighty for casting your judgment.

The irony out of this, most of the TWA guys I speak with seem to think it was UAL who usually treated them the worst, or wished they would do everyone a favor, and go out of business.

I didn't hear an cries from ALPA, or the UAL MEC after the TWA/AA integration. Why not, if YOU were so concerned.

Lastly, what cute way to turn the focus of this thread around. Somebody asks a question, or has a thought that you don't like and you treat them like crap.

Good for you.

AA

Yes, I am still man enough to wish you the best, however you seem like the type that would take glee in someone elses demise.

 

[Andy]

The irony out of this, most of the TWA guys I speak with seem to think it was UAL who usually treated them the worst, or wished they would do everyone a favor, and go out of business.

Man, I don't recall anyone saying that they wished TWA would go out of business. Then again, the last 3 years have wiped most of my memory banks clean.
The Guard unit that I flew in had about half a dozen TWAers and at least a couple of dozen non-TWAers (AMR, LUV, UAL, NWAC, DAL, lotsa regionals). I jumpseated in & out of STL a lot, so I'd be trying to jump with a lot of TWA pilots. I never saw any of them treated poorly or told that they should go out of biz.

 

[Hvy]

Ever heard the one about the UAL gal pestering center for a shortcut? Some unknown voice came over the radio and said "just be patient sweetie, your whole career has been a shortcut."

Stepping off the ridgeline,
Gup

Another nasty shot from GuppyWN. Too bad all you'll ever fly is a light twin. But since you don't have a clue what you're missing maybe it doesn't matter to you. I'll bet that it does though because you go out of your way to cut UAL down. Look up next time I taxi by...I'll give ya a friendly little wave.

 

[AAflyer]

Man, I don't recall anyone saying that they wished TWA would go out of business. Then again, the last 3 years have wiped most of my memory banks clean.
The Guard unit that I flew in had about half a dozen TWAers and at least a couple of dozen non-TWAers (AMR, LUV, UAL, NWAC, DAL, lotsa regionals). I jumpseated in & out of STL a lot, so I'd be trying to jump with a lot of TWA pilots. I never saw any of them treated poorly or told that they should go out of biz.

I have just said what was told to me by TWA captains I have flown with. I am sure the majority never said a thing. When you look around, it seems there is always the 5% at each airline that likes to raze everyone else. I think we may have even seen a couple on this board.

regards,

AA

 

[Andy]

I have just said what was told to me by TWA captains I have flown with. I am sure the majority never said a thing. When you look around, it seems there is always the 5% at each airline that likes to raze everyone else. I think we may have even seen a couple on this board.

Like I said before, I had the chance to jump a lot with TWA. I do recall one flight during my probationary year, right after C2K. The 36 year TWA 767 Captain asked me what 2d year FO pay on the -400 was. I looked it up; he got fairly pissed and spent most of the rest of the time lecturing me on how he was being paid less than a 2d year 747-400 FO. I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but I clammed up except for the occasional 'uh huh' and 'yes sir,' along with the dog in the back window bobbing head.
That was the only lecture that I ever got, and I never lectured a TWA pilot.

I'm sure that when he got hired at TWA, it was the place to go. You never know if you made the right choice until you hit retirement, and even then you're not quite sure.

 

[Dizel8]

CASM excluding fuel:

AMR 7.78
UAL 7.5

A little surprised UAL was not able to get it lower!

"It now has about 30 percent fewer employees (58,000), 20 percent fewer airplanes (460) and 20 percent lower operating costs (7.5 cents per seat per mile), excluding fuel, than it did when the bankruptcy began on Dec. 9, 2002. Labor costs are down by more than $3 billion annually after two steep pay cuts and the elimination of defined-benefit pensions. Dozens of daily domestic flights have been eliminated".

 

[Andy]

CASM excluding fuel:

AMR 7.78
UAL 7.5

A little surprised UAL was not able to get it lower!

With recalls for pilots and new hiring in other positions, the labor side of CASM will continue to decrease, so I'd expect CASM ex-fuel to go lower in '06.

 

[Dizel8]

I may be ignorant, but it seems if you add more employees, without increasing flights or adding airplanes, that hiring more would drive CASM up.

After all, less employees per plane is more efficient. Unless of course you mean, that at the same time hiring and recalls of less senior people, while more senior people leave, will drive cost down?

 

[Boeingman]

Enlighten me, please. I know that UAL's pilots have several skeletons in the closet. Does this have to do with the original Frontier?

Not this, but the original Frontier and the hosejob United pilots did to their ALPA brethren there earned them the nickname "Brainsurgeons". That came about after FAL was ditched due to pressure by United ALPA, a "code a phone" (As they were called back then) from the United ALPA spokesman said that basically, "the Frontier pilots were really like general practitioners and the United pilots were more like Brain Surgeons, we don't need them anyway".

Now T ry O ur R eal Q uality U nited E xperience was a childish campaign in the early 90's with numerous (mostly Denver) United employees wearing a pin with a screw into a Continetal logo. Lots of harassment by United employess, agents going into our ticket lines trying to rebook our pax, pilots forcing go arounds, blocked radio calls, telling us to fall on our swords etc. etc.

Really a pathetic and arrogant display of attitudes shown to fellow airport and airline employees.
I can just about guarantee that any Continetal person who shows zero empathy for United's plight most certainly was either a Frontier victim or endured some form of harassment with the Torque program.

Shall I talk about the United pilots who would spit at us just because we wore a Continental uniform? Some of these idiots didn't even take the time to notice some of us were wearing ALPA pins with stars on them.

 

[Andy]

I may be ignorant, but it seems if you add more employees, without increasing flights or adding airplanes, that hiring more would drive CASM up.

After all, less employees per plane is more efficient. Unless of course you mean, that at the same time hiring and recalls of less senior people, while more senior people leave, will drive cost down?

Keeping ASMs flat (UAL will increase ASMs), your retirements off of the top of the payscale are being replaced by workers at the bottom of the payscale.
The most junior pilot on UAL property prior to recall was on year 7 pay.
Just imagine the difference in pay & benefits for a first year FA compared to a 30 year FA.

Incremental ASMs will also be less expensive, since you won't have to add much to your fixed costs for the incremental ASMs.

 

[Dizel8]

True, adding ASM will certainly lower it, unless the growth is in high cost RJs.
As for lower seniority, hence less paid, you are indeed correct, although since those on the property gets a small raise (?), then it is math above my ability.