Why United Airlines will fail again

[G4G5]

Holy COW!

Are you hiring?

AA

No, I am not kidding..

About $150k for a G5 or Global express is average. The range in the Northeast or out in Calif would be in the $135-165 range. The pay is less in the central states with the lower cost of living. The next tier of G4/Challenger 604 or Falcon 900 drivers get a little less. The nice thing is most jobs do come with most of the perks I mentioned.

 

[atpcliff]

Hi!

I don't think UAL will have any problems with the projected $50 a barrel oil prices they plan on for the next five years.

Look at this past week, when oil dropped down into the high 50s, and it looks like it'll keep dropping for the next several decades.

Wait a second, maybe oil went up into the high 60s in this past week, and it looks like it'll keep going up for the next several decades?

I can't remember which is correct.

I guess the UAL mgmt doesn't really give a crap about their airline and their employees, they just made plans to get great golden parachutes to jump out of the plane at FL 350 and watch it plummet into a smoking hole while they drink pina coladas on some beach island with their early retirement money!

Cliff
PSM

 

[TXDA2000]

I usually stay out of the airline cat fights, but I can personally pick about 20 "friends" at United who swayed my opinion about their airline.

You guys (not all of you of course, hate to generalize and lump) need to look at some video portraying your attitude towards other aviators in the nineties, be it fellow airline types, rj, or corporate.

Let's just say I still have the bad taste in my mouth.

Payback is when a college friend who is a widebody FO calls me up for a job, just a few years after he told me my career choice (corporate) was sub-standard and meaningless.

I guess I'm gonna have to buy an airline type uniform and hat, get some glamour shots at the mall, and set up a shrine by the front door to show everyone who enters my house that I'm a god. Is there "shrine arrangement" training included in upgrade class, because they all seem to be arranged in the same manner? Just curious!

Lighten up guys, we are all in the same boat! Some are just bigger than others, not necessarily better.

 

[Andy]

The "just go out of business" attitude and type of statements were not just from UAL pilots, but from individual pilots from the rest of the "legacy" carriers also. It got old after a while, and we didn't spend 3+ years in Ch. 11.

That attitude is not confined to legacy pilots, nor is/was it solely aimed at TWA. I wouldn't even say that it's confined to the airline industry; I think that it's human nature.

I'm rather surprised that someone in Guard/Reserve unit would make that kind of comment to another member of the unit. I flew with a lot of TWA guys at my Guard unit, and there was no bad blood until after the AA/TWA merge. I did get to witness friendships ended due to the merge. The AA and TWA guys were like oil and water after the merge.

I used to jumpseat on TWA a lot; a class act. The FAs were usually 'cat ranchers,' but they were almost always very nice (just kinda strange). I spent a lot of time in Lambert and got to see TWA's operation, with the monochrome monitors, burroughs computer system, etc. The operation was being held together by bubblegum, bailing wire, and very dedicated employees.

 

[Andy]

I usually stay out of the airline cat fights, but I can personally pick about 20 "friends" at United who swayed my opinion about their airline.

Nothing personal, but they must not have been very good friends if they didn't get you letters of rec and an interview. ... on second thought, maybe they were really good friends by not having you work at UAL. :^)

 

[WhiteCloud]

I give up. It's apparent that these guys have some serious hair up their nether regions and no amount of FACTS is going to change how they look at United. It's also obvious to the casual reader that they must have pinned some hopes upon United at some point in their lives to have such a serious and continual obsession with all things United. I wish you luck in your lives guys......you need help. Oh, and thanks for the 'congratulations' that most aviators give when they see their comrades get through something as daunting as we have been. Hope to see you on my jumpseat someday (I suggest you don't mention your screen names)

UAL has to live with the consequences of going bankrupt,and not paying their bills. Try doing it sometime and then see how many friends you have left among your former business partners. The way they deal with their employees, contractors and customers will have a huge impact on their survival. While were doing psycobabble here your post indicates a typical abusive personality......you have this need for acceptance and then blame and accuse those who don't accept you as the ones with a problem. Try behaving better and you'll have more friends.

 

[AA717driver]

I'm rather surprised that someone in Guard/Reserve unit would make that kind of comment to another member of the unit. I flew with a lot of TWA guys at my Guard unit, and there was no bad blood until after the AA/TWA merge. I did get to witness friendships ended due to the merge. The AA and TWA guys were like oil and water after the merge.

Andy--That's why I can't get past this. Even though it didn't happen to me (the Guard thing, but I got plenty of snide comments on my commute on USAir over the years...) I am good friends with the guy it did happen to. He's a great guy and I just couldn't believe it.

To me, that epitomized the attitude that brought us to where we are today. Whether the comments by the UAL guys or by the AA people about the supposed inferiority of the TWA pilots, arrogance and parochialism has divided us and allowed management/big money to break us down.

I've got a friend at UAL who is 57. No retirement. No chance to recover. It kills me to talk to him because he is just screwed.

I think everyone is misunderstanding what G4G5 is telling you. Just because you got your pay slashed and benefits cut, doesn't guarantee success. You guys are going to have to watch management like a hawk. They got their money and if they start taking it out, watch out! Learn from those who have been through this before--you can bet management is!

Good luck.TC

 

[Andy]

I think everyone is misunderstanding what G4G5 is telling you. Just because you got your pay slashed and benefits cut, doesn't guarantee success. You guys are going to have to watch management like a hawk. They got their money and if they start taking it out, watch out! Learn from those who have been through this before--you can bet management is!

Good luck.TC

Dude, no one needs to tell us that stuff. We're well aware of it. When you're looking over the edge of the chap 7 cliff, it's a sobering experience. I'm sure that you had more than a couple of days where you were concerned that you'd read in the morning paper that your airline was being liquidated.

The current management is no nicer to the employees than the management that got us into chap 11. But make no mistake, this is a different management. More than half of the senior company officials have been changed since Tilton. 22 out of 37 VPs are no longer VPs at United. I think that they're more competent than the previous management. Just as evil as previous management, but more competent.

I have a great deal of confidence in our current MEC; they are much more concerned about the entire membership than working on self-serving agendas.

Again, I don't think that any pilot at United needs to be reminded of this. We live it (even I as a furloughee keep very up to date) every day. The constant use of 2 by 4s over our cranium cases over these issues is only going to make us resistant to the message - one that we've already received and fully comprehend.

 

[32LT10]

UAL was NORDO today, death to all who work there!

So was JBLU 500. Perhaps he was reading the losses for JBLU. How can a company stay in business losing that much money. The goverment should just shut them down. They don't have a defined retirement plan and thus must be a burden to society. It must be stopped :smash:

 

[Sonny Crockett]

So was JBLU 500. Perhaps he was reading the losses for JBLU. How can a company stay in business losing that much money. The goverment should just shut them down. They don't have a defined retirement plan and thus must be a burden to society. It must be stopped :smash:

I agree!

Shut er' down so the airlines "that pay bills" can grow and prosper! Must be jETBLUE's business model is all wrong! THEY HAVE TO GET COSTS DOWN! What are they thinking? Must be the GREEDY pilots at jETBLUE can't they see that they should give up some $$$ to SAVE the company!

(T.I.C.)

 

[32LT10]

I've got a friend at UAL who is 57. No retirement. No chance to recover. It kills me to talk to him because he is just screwed.

He is 57 you say. How much does he have in the B-fund. Did he sell his claim and you are not taking into account the fact that he is going to receive the biggest part of the bridge to level out his A plan termination from the note. The guys that are screwed are the guys that left and did not participate in the PLSA or Lump. Hindsight is twenty twenty and those guys that left before BK and were able to receive the windfall from when the ESOP shares were worthsomthing are doing all right.

You limited knowledge of the actual situation is a bit flawed. This 57 year old pilot is not giving all the details and pilots in general tend to poor mouth uless they just won the lottery. Even then they would be complaining about the tax implications. So reserve your pity for real cause. The guy is doing all right. If he has 3 ex wives, with 8 kids ages 3-40 and they all live at home with half of them in some type of mental therapy for drugs/alchohol or addicted to internet porn then it is his own fault for the situtaion he is in. A lot of guys could make a million bucks a year and still spen 1.5million.

While C2K was a great contract I think everyone realized it was unsustainable the day it was signed. It was the those simpletons that had no clue about the reality of the industry that were surprised to see the cuts.

 

[AAflyer]

He is 57 you say. How much does he have in the B-fund. Did he sell his claim and you are not taking into account the fact that he is going to receive the biggest part of the bridge to level out his A plan termination from the note. The guys that are screwed are the guys that left and did not participate in the PLSA or Lump. Hindsight is twenty twenty and those guys that left before BK and were able to receive the windfall from when the ESOP shares were worthsomthing are doing all right.

You limited knowledge of the actual situation is a bit flawed. This 57 year old pilot is not giving all the details and pilots in general tend to poor mouth uless they just won the lottery. Even then they would be complaining about the tax implications. So reserve your pity for real cause. The guy is doing all right. If he has 3 ex wives, with 8 kids ages 3-40 and they all live at home with half of them in some type of mental therapy for drugs/alchohol or addicted to internet porn then it is his own fault for the situtaion he is in. A lot of guys could make a million bucks a year and still spen 1.5million.

While C2K was a great contract I think everyone realized it was unsustainable the day it was signed. It was the those simpletons that had no clue about the reality of the industry that were surprised to see the cuts.

If it was unsustainable the day it was signed, and you as pilots were not just employees but owners of the airline, why the heck would you accept something knowing that you would kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Seriously, this sounds flawed on so many levels.

AA

 

[Boeingman]

AAFlyer has a real good handle on the situation. Unfortunatley his message will be lost in the shouts of glee of emerging from bankruptcy.

Also, you United guys that want to walk on water and claim the world was against you and other woe be to me issues, United pilots were among the worst offenders of using "fall on your swords for the good of the industry" mantra. Remember TORQUE guys?

Hopefully some of the loudmouths over there learned a good lesson and swallowed a large piece of humble pie, but I doubt it. I wouldn't feel to cozy with your situation over there right now. Those loans came with a hefty price and as foolish as it is not to believe, they are most definetly secured to the remaining assets. As much as I despise that editor who wrote the USA article, he does raise some very valid points.

On the other hand, they employ a lot of good people and as my former nemesis Mugs correctly points out, should they fail, those aircraft wil end up at some bottom feeder airline putting more pressure on the rest of us. Not to forget the personal destruction to the employees is uncalculable. ALPA obviously has failed miserably in protecting our careers and contracts. I can only imagine the destruction a United collapse would cause in the long term for us all watching ALPA flounder with that mess.

 

[32LT10]

If it was unsustainable the day it was signed, and you as pilots were not just employees but owners of the airline, why the heck would you accept something knowing that you would kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Seriously, this sounds flawed on so many levels.

AA

You vote yes or no. There was no, Is this sustainable? box. The landscape was different in 2000. If you were even in aviation back then you might remember. There were two parties that signed the agreement. UAL and ALPA. Without both it would not have been valid. Dubo and Goodwin were not the biggest mental giants they liked to think they were.

Go AAhead and Bemoaan UAAL escaaping from Baankruptcy. The AA Daay is coming aand it maay not be so bright.

Typicaal AAer. Do you guys haave someon to staart you caars for you. Aafter the screw job you gave the TWAA people I would not be aable to sleep at night. Much less trust the straanger on the street.

 

[Andy]

If it was unsustainable the day it was signed, and you as pilots were not just employees but owners of the airline, why the heck would you accept something knowing that you would kill the goose that laid the golden egg?

Seriously, this sounds flawed on so many levels.

Do you really want to open this can of worms? OK, my first day at UAL was June 2000, completed training Sep 2000. I was unable to vote for C2K since I was on probation.
Mad Dog Dubinsky was the UAL MC. He was able to get (not the sharpest tool in the shed) Jimmy Goodwin, a 30-something year UAL employee who worked his way up from bag smashing or CS or something along those lines, instead of Bob Nardelli, whom Gerald Greenwald had chosen as his successor. The reason why Mad Dog wanted Jimmy Goodwin in there instead of Nardelli is that he knew Nardelli would be a tough negotiator against labor, whereas 'ol Jimmy would be a creampuff. Mad Dog was able to use his seat on the UAL BOD to nix Nardelli. UAL's loss, Home Depot's gain. (Of course G4G5 would spin this into Nardelli being told to hit the bricks at UAL and he had no where else to go other than the troubled Home Depot).
Mad Dog was able to leverage the dumba$$ decision to buy USAirways at a HEFTY premium at $60/sh into C2K negotiations. That's not to say that the decision to buy USAirways was bad at that time (that's a whole 'nuther can 'o worms; I'd need to save it for a different post). Greenwald had promised the pilots a seamless contract, but Jimmy was easily distracted by shiny objects (the USAirways acquisition), much like a certain poster on this board and told Mad Dog that Greenwald, not he, had promised a seamless contract.
'Ol Jimmy didn't know what hit him during the 'summer of love' and caved in to Mad Dog on just about everything.
Why did Mad Dog go for the 'money contract' (his words) and save the work rules for the next contract? Because Mad Dog hit age 60 a couple of years after C2K, which would set him up for a hefty lump sum & retirement check. And we, the UAL ALPA membership, fell for it.
I guess that the last laugh's on Mad Dog, since he choked the goose hard enough that retirees will no longer be getting golden eggs, him included.
While management is to blame for many fcukups at UAL, there are enough fingers pointing at the pilots for us to not have hands clean in the matter.

I don't think that most UAL pilots realized that C2K was unsustainable, even after summer of 2001. I was in Airbus training in the summer of 2001, and the guy next to me was also in a class at UAL (to this day, I don't know who he was and don't care). He yelled in the phone so loud at his wife that it was easy for me to hear his side of the conversations. In a nutshell, this guy was building a $1.5 million house for his bride, and had bid up to the largest equipment he could (ie bottom reserve pilot) so that they could afford it. She wanted $10K to go to Europe for the summer while he was in training. After a few days of this, the noise in the next room finally subsided; he caved. I wonder who she's sucking blood from nowadays.
As for me, I completed the process of dumping my money grubbing wife in April 2001. It cost me everything we had, but at least I got to keep my pension. :nuts: I was fortunate in that I didn't have any extra cash to blow on toys or anything else. My first year two paycheck was Oct 2001; I banked the entire pay raise.

 

[Andy]

Remember TORQUE guys?

Enlighten me, please. I know that UAL's pilots have several skeletons in the closet. Does this have to do with the original Frontier?

 

[AAflyer]

You vote yes or no. There was no, Is this sustainable? box. The landscape was different in 2000. If you were even in aviation back then you might remember. There were two parties that signed the agreement. UAL and ALPA. Without both it would not have been valid. Dubo and Goodwin were not the biggest mental giants they liked to think they were.

Go AAhead and Bemoaan UAAL escaaping from Baankruptcy. The AA Daay is coming aand it maay not be so bright.

Typicaal AAer. Do you guys haave someon to staart you caars for you. Aafter the screw job you gave the TWAA people I would not be aable to sleep at night. Much less trust the straanger on the street.

You are pretty pathetic,

I ask you a simple question, and you come back with all types of dribble. You're professionalism does not represent the whole group of UAL, thank god.

As for me, I didn't purchase TWA, nor did I have anything to do with the integration. APA sought to protect their members, and ALPA (which I think failed, hence the lawsuit) pursued what was best for their members.

I remember where some of your pilots wanted to put the USAirways guys when that merger was a possibility. Pretty smug to come off judging the way you do.

If you do not want to answer the original question that is fine, but give me a break about what boxes where available to be checked.

AA

P.S. You seem to have the emotional stability of a teenager if AALL you cAAn do is use words with AA.

 

[AAflyer]

Do you really want to open this can of worms? OK, my first day at UAL was June 2000, completed training Sep 2000. I was unable to vote for C2K since I was on probation.
Mad Dog Dubinsky was the UAL MC. He was able to get (not the sharpest tool in the shed) Jimmy Goodwin, a 30-something year UAL employee who worked his way up from bag smashing or CS or something along those lines, instead of Bob Nardelli, whom Gerald Greenwald had chosen as his successor. The reason why Mad Dog wanted Jimmy Goodwin in there instead of Nardelli is that he knew Nardelli would be a tough negotiator against labor, whereas 'ol Jimmy would be a creampuff. Mad Dog was able to use his seat on the UAL BOD to nix Nardelli. UAL's loss, Home Depot's gain. (Of course G4G5 would spin this into Nardelli being told to hit the bricks at UAL and he had no where else to go other than the troubled Home Depot).
Mad Dog was able to leverage the dumba$$ decision to buy USAirways at a HEFTY premium at $60/sh into C2K negotiations. That's not to say that the decision to buy USAirways was bad at that time (that's a whole 'nuther can 'o worms; I'd need to save it for a different post). Greenwald had promised the pilots a seamless contract, but Jimmy was easily distracted by shiny objects (the USAirways acquisition), much like a certain poster on this board and told Mad Dog that Greenwald, not he, had promised a seamless contract.
'Ol Jimmy didn't know what hit him during the 'summer of love' and caved in to Mad Dog on just about everything.
Why did Mad Dog go for the 'money contract' (his words) and save the work rules for the next contract? Because Mad Dog hit age 60 a couple of years after C2K, which would set him up for a hefty lump sum & retirement check. And we, the UAL ALPA membership, fell for it.
I guess that the last laugh's on Mad Dog, since he choked the goose hard enough that retirees will no longer be getting golden eggs, him included.
While management is to blame for many fcukups at UAL, there are enough fingers pointing at the pilots for us to not have hands clean in the matter.

I don't think that most UAL pilots realized that C2K was unsustainable, even after summer of 2001. I was in Airbus training in the summer of 2001, and the guy next to me was also in a class at UAL (to this day, I don't know who he was and don't care). He yelled in the phone so loud at his wife that it was easy for me to hear his side of the conversations. In a nutshell, this guy was building a $1.5 million house for his bride, and had bid up to the largest equipment he could (ie bottom reserve pilot) so that they could afford it. She wanted $10K to go to Europe for the summer while he was in training. After a few days of this, the noise in the next room finally subsided; he caved. I wonder who she's sucking blood from nowadays.
As for me, I completed the process of dumping my money grubbing wife in April 2001. It cost me everything we had, but at least I got to keep my pension. :nuts: I was fortunate in that I didn't have any extra cash to blow on toys or anything else. My first year two paycheck was Oct 2001; I banked the entire pay raise.

Thank you for the rationale response, that is what I had originally thought, no one would accept a contract that they thought would seriously damage the company they worked for. Your co-worker (with the teen-age temper) had us assuming that everyone pretty much knew it was not sustainable. That didn't make much sense.

Once again, good luck. I have been furloughed from three other airlines, yet I have never been through a full blown BK, I can only imagine the nightmare it was.

regards,

AA

 

[32LT10]

You are pretty pathetic,


I remember where some of your pilots wanted to put the USAirways guys when that merger was a possibility. Pretty smug to come off judging the way you do.

.

Show me a merger where someone on both sides did not utter the staple thought. The big difference with UA and US is that the merger was never consumated. Had the integration occured it would have been dictated by ALPA merger policy and not a staple job. As for being smug I think you guys are the ones that come across as smug. How many TWA pilots are left at AA? How many TWA employees still have jobs at AA? You and your band of thieves ruined many a life at TWA and have no remorse in doing it.

If you want to exchange Q&A then how about answering the above? You fake your concern for the UAL pilots and the pension issue while you shived the TWA pilots. Again, typical.

 

[AAflyer]

Yes, you are right. Being hired at AA at the end of the 90s hold me responsible for the destruction of TWA. Me alone, stole the jobs of thousands of employees. To my understanding there are 400-500 still flying out of 2300+/ Had 9-11 not happened most likely all would still be here, and you would not be emerging from chpt 11.

Don't lecture me on ALPA merger policy. I have been ALPA. I have also seen pilot groups fom EAL, Braniff, Pan AM, treated like crap. You seem rather high and mighty for casting your judgment.

The irony out of this, most of the TWA guys I speak with seem to think it was UAL who usually treated them the worst, or wished they would do everyone a favor, and go out of business.

I didn't hear an cries from ALPA, or the UAL MEC after the TWA/AA integration. Why not, if YOU were so concerned.

Lastly, what cute way to turn the focus of this thread around. Somebody asks a question, or has a thought that you don't like and you treat them like crap.

Good for you.

AA

Yes, I am still man enough to wish you the best, however you seem like the type that would take glee in someone elses demise.