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Why United Airlines will fail again

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AAflyer said:
The irony out of this, most of the TWA guys I speak with seem to think it was UAL who usually treated them the worst, or wished they would do everyone a favor, and go out of business.

Man, I don't recall anyone saying that they wished TWA would go out of business. Then again, the last 3 years have wiped most of my memory banks clean.
The Guard unit that I flew in had about half a dozen TWAers and at least a couple of dozen non-TWAers (AMR, LUV, UAL, NWAC, DAL, lotsa regionals). I jumpseated in & out of STL a lot, so I'd be trying to jump with a lot of TWA pilots. I never saw any of them treated poorly or told that they should go out of biz.
 
GuppyWN said:
Ever heard the one about the UAL gal pestering center for a shortcut? Some unknown voice came over the radio and said "just be patient sweetie, your whole career has been a shortcut."

Stepping off the ridgeline,
Gup


Another nasty shot from GuppyWN. Too bad all you'll ever fly is a light twin. But since you don't have a clue what you're missing maybe it doesn't matter to you. I'll bet that it does though because you go out of your way to cut UAL down. Look up next time I taxi by...I'll give ya a friendly little wave.
 
Andy said:
Man, I don't recall anyone saying that they wished TWA would go out of business. Then again, the last 3 years have wiped most of my memory banks clean.
The Guard unit that I flew in had about half a dozen TWAers and at least a couple of dozen non-TWAers (AMR, LUV, UAL, NWAC, DAL, lotsa regionals). I jumpseated in & out of STL a lot, so I'd be trying to jump with a lot of TWA pilots. I never saw any of them treated poorly or told that they should go out of biz.

I have just said what was told to me by TWA captains I have flown with. I am sure the majority never said a thing. When you look around, it seems there is always the 5% at each airline that likes to raze everyone else. I think we may have even seen a couple on this board.

regards,

AA
 
AAflyer said:
I have just said what was told to me by TWA captains I have flown with. I am sure the majority never said a thing. When you look around, it seems there is always the 5% at each airline that likes to raze everyone else. I think we may have even seen a couple on this board.

Like I said before, I had the chance to jump a lot with TWA. I do recall one flight during my probationary year, right after C2K. The 36 year TWA 767 Captain asked me what 2d year FO pay on the -400 was. I looked it up; he got fairly pissed and spent most of the rest of the time lecturing me on how he was being paid less than a 2d year 747-400 FO. I'm not the brightest bulb in the pack, but I clammed up except for the occasional 'uh huh' and 'yes sir,' along with the dog in the back window bobbing head.
That was the only lecture that I ever got, and I never lectured a TWA pilot.

I'm sure that when he got hired at TWA, it was the place to go. You never know if you made the right choice until you hit retirement, and even then you're not quite sure.
 
CASM excluding fuel:

AMR 7.78
UAL 7.5

A little surprised UAL was not able to get it lower!

"It now has about 30 percent fewer employees (58,000), 20 percent fewer airplanes (460) and 20 percent lower operating costs (7.5 cents per seat per mile), excluding fuel, than it did when the bankruptcy began on Dec. 9, 2002. Labor costs are down by more than $3 billion annually after two steep pay cuts and the elimination of defined-benefit pensions. Dozens of daily domestic flights have been eliminated".
 
Dizel8 said:
CASM excluding fuel:

AMR 7.78
UAL 7.5

A little surprised UAL was not able to get it lower!

With recalls for pilots and new hiring in other positions, the labor side of CASM will continue to decrease, so I'd expect CASM ex-fuel to go lower in '06.
 
I may be ignorant, but it seems if you add more employees, without increasing flights or adding airplanes, that hiring more would drive CASM up.

After all, less employees per plane is more efficient. Unless of course you mean, that at the same time hiring and recalls of less senior people, while more senior people leave, will drive cost down?
 
Andy said:
Enlighten me, please. I know that UAL's pilots have several skeletons in the closet. Does this have to do with the original Frontier?

Not this, but the original Frontier and the hosejob United pilots did to their ALPA brethren there earned them the nickname "Brainsurgeons". That came about after FAL was ditched due to pressure by United ALPA, a "code a phone" (As they were called back then) from the United ALPA spokesman said that basically, "the Frontier pilots were really like general practitioners and the United pilots were more like Brain Surgeons, we don't need them anyway".

Now T ry O ur R eal Q uality U nited E xperience was a childish campaign in the early 90's with numerous (mostly Denver) United employees wearing a pin with a screw into a Continetal logo. Lots of harassment by United employess, agents going into our ticket lines trying to rebook our pax, pilots forcing go arounds, blocked radio calls, telling us to fall on our swords etc. etc.

Really a pathetic and arrogant display of attitudes shown to fellow airport and airline employees.
I can just about guarantee that any Continetal person who shows zero empathy for United's plight most certainly was either a Frontier victim or endured some form of harassment with the Torque program.

Shall I talk about the United pilots who would spit at us just because we wore a Continental uniform? Some of these idiots didn't even take the time to notice some of us were wearing ALPA pins with stars on them.
 
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Dizel8 said:
I may be ignorant, but it seems if you add more employees, without increasing flights or adding airplanes, that hiring more would drive CASM up.

After all, less employees per plane is more efficient. Unless of course you mean, that at the same time hiring and recalls of less senior people, while more senior people leave, will drive cost down?

Keeping ASMs flat (UAL will increase ASMs), your retirements off of the top of the payscale are being replaced by workers at the bottom of the payscale.
The most junior pilot on UAL property prior to recall was on year 7 pay.
Just imagine the difference in pay & benefits for a first year FA compared to a 30 year FA.

Incremental ASMs will also be less expensive, since you won't have to add much to your fixed costs for the incremental ASMs.
 
True, adding ASM will certainly lower it, unless the growth is in high cost RJs.
As for lower seniority, hence less paid, you are indeed correct, although since those on the property gets a small raise (?), then it is math above my ability.
 
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