Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Starman]

NJAFracPilot,

You lost. Get over it.

Stay the hell out of the way while those of us with some self-worth fight for a good contract.

 

[netjetwife]

NJAFrac pilot, let's not lose sight of the fact that YOU are not supporting your family on FO/junior captain wages while calling for those that ARE to continue doing so for another 3 years! And obviously it doesn't bother you to advise other pilots in the company to take a PAYCUT for 3 years and then have to fight their way back to where they started from! Many currently on the flex would have faced EXACTLY that scenario. Your statement --"I want equitable pay for us"...is nothing more than lip service. Had your TRULY meant that, you'd have voted NO.

Starman, his problem isn't a lack of self-worth....though "self" is a key word. NJAFrac pilot is SELF-CENTERED. That's not a problem when you're going it alone, but this is a union---hhheelllooo! Those making much less than you--the vast majority--don't want to keep hearing that worn out "next time" tune any longer. Didn't you get that clue when you looked at the 82 percent (of 98% returned ballots) that voted NO? So you're happy with your pay--fine---but please stop telling others who make far less to be satisfied with theirs. NJW

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW
So do you think the programmer should be paid 50k or 150K? He has cert in all areas even though NJ only uses some of them. Its just a philosophical question.

I read this post and think- Kids stay in the AF longer!

Then i try to put myself in your shoes. The MEC said "kick ass pay" SU.org says "kick ass pay." What exaclty is Kick ass pay? 10%, 20%?

You both say "industry leading contract." But I read different definations of industry? Fractional, Aviation? Transportaion? What industry is MEC/SU.org talking about?

What about other benefits?
Medical, dental vision? Are they any good?
(I assume you have military benefits? I may be wrong)

Retirement? Is there a pension plan? Is this important?

I saw somewhere on this board that retro pay and bonus is a tax issue? Do you know the issue? Can anyone explain it to me?

Is your salary just salary or do you get overtime pay too? Is there any opportunity for overtime pay?

 

[Hawkered]

A change in tune...

Gotta agree with the wife on this one. We were promised "kick-ass, industry leading pay". We didn't see it.

There were plenty of people that saw the possibility of a real return on investment in pay-for-training (PFT). I never believed in it and quite honestly feared that PFT would be seen in the same way as "scab" by ALPA and other unions before long.

The destruction of the very livelihoods in this industry all began with PFT. While airlines contiued to bargain in good faith. Pilots with less experience simply took the "easy" route.

Isn't it time this problem was finally fixed?

Just like CVR language...should we really ever before looking at regressive pay scales or language in any area of the contract?

I did vote yes on the contract. I wish I hadn't, and I'm glad it didn't pass!

Lets get this whole industry back on the rails...one contract at a time.

 

[Publishers]

While an admirable thought, the fact is that you are the only union company in your immediate industry.

The airline union has found that they have extreme difficulty in protecting their turf in a deregulated environment.

Either way, there are a bunch of people who got a kick ass contract walking the street.

 

[gunfyter]

Tide is turning. LANDSLIDE Re-election of Bush and Republican congress means Taxcuts for the Rich will be permanant. They can now feel better about affording to pay pilots... Buy more and BIGGER and FASTER airplanes.

I just transferred all my investments to Stock and Real Estate. Look for DOW 11000 by Christmas and 13000+ by summer. NASD will grow faster.

Confidence will be fueled by more terrorist nations going the way of Libya and capitulating now that they see the American people support a strong President who will kick their ass.

Stability will cause oil prices to sink and then watchout... The continuation of the Reagan economic expansion will kick this economy into HIGH SPEED LOW DRAG overdrive.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, this recent article gives a good background to the situation as long as you remind yourself when you reach the end that the TA has now been voted down by 82% and the pilots are well on their way to achieving their other goals. http://www.ainonline.com/issues/11_...dcotractp4.html.

It seemed to me that "kick-ass" pay was another synonym for "industry-leading contract"--that industry being business aviation. Many referred to the NBAA salary reports as a benchmark for setting the NJA payscale. It makes sense to me and sounds quite reasonable. Btw, SU does NOT use the phrase "kick-ass" pay. They are doing what the failed MEC should have done--using the pilots' surveys to tell them what to fight for. Fairness will finally prevail!

Overtime is paid but the pilots are absolutely correct that families shouldn't have to rely on it to help pay the bills. The salary should be sufficient, in and of itself! It is wrong for the company and the last MEC to count overtime toward a pilot's compensation because they cannot count on it being there--the chances vary w/the plane and timing--not to mention that they are gone more than enough as it is! My husband extends 2 days a month for the extra money and other wives tell me that their husbands would also but the opportunity isn't there in those planes. The pilots are demanding that overtime become "gravy" as it is for other workers. Working those 2 extra days puts my husband gone 19 days a month; needless to say, I couldn't agree more.

Benefits are better than our AF retirement ones and the NJ pilots seem to be mostly satisfied, as far as I can tell. They do say they will give nothing up--completely understandable--and I hear calls for NJA to receive the same benefits as the other Netjets companies, usually NJI. This also seems reasonable as they are in the same family DOING THE SAME JOB and a parent isn't supposed to show favoritism--right?

I've seen retirement mentioned on the pilots board and the posts that listed it as an important objective were well received. And why not? It is a staple of professional compensation, isn't it? Loyalty should be rewarded and the growth of the company in recent years does owe much to the efforts of the pilot force. I'd be shocked if the managers don't have a retirement program--wouldn't you? How do they justify leaving out the pilots? This is another issue that will be addressed in the survey, but I do know that the pilots want it to be a career, not a stepping stone.

Tax question: The pilots are aware that they will need to seek expert tax advice, but it's generally accepted that it would be better to have the pay as Retro which applies to the past years and can be spread out (by each pilot) to adjust what was previously made rather than being a lump sum that can lose more, tax-wise, in the year that it falls in. This is my understanding and I invite any of the NJ pilots to help explain it better if I am not stating the case correctly.

Staying in the AF was only possible for about 12-18 months longer as the funds for my husband's position were not being extended by congress. He had already retired in 2001--went back in after 9-11 and his subsequent furlough from AA--and as a condition to returning to active duty agreed that he wouldn't be eligible for promotion and the program was of short duration. Working as hard as his peers for less money was not attractive. That experience does help us to understand the NJA vs NJI frustration, quite well, however. This board has been rife w/second-guessing, and I can understand it to a certain degree. Pilots and their wives do it to themselves as well, but with more compassion. I'm not saying you are being cruel, FAcFriend, but others have been. It saddens me that pilots will do that to one another. No one has a crystal ball nor would ever have predicted something like 9-11 which changed the industry and cost so many their lives. That said, life does go on and pilots must provide for their families. It must also be said that NJA is one of the few companies that actually grew during the aftermath of 9-11. They are NOT like the airlines!

If the NJ programmer took the job knowing that he was going to be overqualified and the pay DOES match the job duties, (for the pilots it doesn't)then he may well have to look elsewhere. If the company is interested in retaining him because of his skills, he can try for a better salary. Either way, the company should never pay programmers more than pilots who are responsible for the lives of others, plus, very costly airplanes, and are gone more than they are home. If this happens then CLEARLY THE PILOTS ARE UNDERPAID! I sympathize if you or your spouse are also facing job pressures.

Hawkered, we're just getting started and there is a lot of work to be done. SU needs everyone to participate; therein lies our strength. Welcome to the team!
Netjetwife

 

[kingtut]

gunfyter

First, congratulations upon the victory of your candidate and I applauded your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook for the future of our national economy. However, your mutual affinity for republican, conservative politics and organized labor presents an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, you are aware that the fortunes of organized labor are not improved by the dominance of the Republican Party in the White House and the Congress.

I certainly hope that your forecast of rich people passing their good fortune on to the less fortunate holds up. Experience tells me something else.

 

[netjetwife]

Kingtut, I could be cowardly and let you do all the talking on THAT issue, but it doesn't seem too fair. So here's my two cents worth---I concur...lol Now I'm going to pull a failed MEC and post and run...lol. Actually, I'm off to clean house, something that sounds preferable to discussing politics.... NJW PS Gunfyter, I do hope that you're right about the rich being willing to pay the pilots more! It does seem to me that they would care.

 

[Publishers]

The rich are rich for the most part because they pay attention to the details.
Most experienced programmers I know make more than corporate pilots.
Corporate and charter pilots, for the most part, do not get any of the benefits you get in the Netjets environment.
They grew because of 9/11 to some extent.
NJI was and is a different animal.

 

[Live4flyng]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I'm confused, what do you mean by this?

 

[netjetwife]

Maybe the "different animal" is a reference to their favored /"pet" status as compared to NJA? I doubt that is really what Publishers means, but it seems to be the difference mentioned most by the NJA pilots who are tired of being the "poor cousin" of the BH family.

 

[Publishers]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

 

[Live4flyng]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

Just as I thought. What exactly is the difference between NJI and NJA? I'm still waiting to hear your version. Now you are asking about EJM. You have some homework to do before coming here and trying to educate the pilots in this business.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Please explain this one to us too....

 

[Majik]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

 

[Publishers]

Is or is not this company still a joint deal with Gulfstream???Was it not geared for the Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft? To my best recollection, this was their concept for fractional Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft. Gulfstream insisted that it be separate from Netjets and that the pilot group be separate, partially because they did not want to deal with the kind of stuff we are seeing right now. They wanted the deal based at SAV.

EJM was to offer management services to people who did not want to do the share bit but wanted their aircraft chartered. I have three of these deals on the premises now.

Frankly Majik I do not try and remember all the history of these companies. In the mid eighties, I was in discussions with EJA about an executive position if the company was not sold.

Educating pilots in this business is more of a challenge than I want this late in life. I used to make some of mine study the company financials so they would have a better grasp on how difficult it is. Most figured out they would rather fly the plane.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW- My brother in law was a corporate pilot (in reference to your NBAA salary comment) I cannot acess this btw. He was not home 11 days a month. And when he was home he still had to go the office from 9-5. They moved to 3 different states with the same company in 6 years. Do your guys have to go in to the office when they are home?

If your benefits are better then Champus they must be outstanding.

Re; Retirement I dont know any cos that offer management retirement plans anymore. 401k with or mostly without match.

When you say managment- do you mean non union employees? Or employees who manage other people? Line employees? Doesnt belonging to a union provide benefits that non union employees do not enjoy? Why belong to one then? if you negotiate on your own, seems like you would have a stronger position individually.

I laughed at your parent/child analogy. (I hope that was appropriate). As if any good business decision can be made with the emotions of a parent or any good parent would make decisions with the objectivity of a business director.

Good luck- thanks for the information.

Ps TO ALL- if these other non union pilots make more money have you thought of looking into negotiating individually and not having a union?

 

[gunfyter]

First, congratulations upon the victory of your candidate and I applauded your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook for the future of our national economy. However, your mutual affinity for republican, conservative politics and organized labor presents an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, you are aware that the fortunes of organized labor are not improved by the dominance of the Republican Party in the White House and the Congress.

Oil falls to five-week low as supply fears ease...
Job Gains Strongest in Seven Months...

337,000 people added to payrolls...


When I made my prediction the Dow was 10,027 NASDAQ was 1942.

A few minutes ago DOW = 10,375 NASDAQ = 2033

GET READY TO ROCKnROLL! W is in charge and the situation is under control!

The mistake in unions supporting liberals is this... Liberals are very concerned with sharing the pie fairly so they tax businesses and the rich such that the pie SHRINKS... Conservatives untax business so that the pie increases for everybody. Thats what will help labor.

Taxes on the Rich and businesses is to the economy what flying with your gear down flaps and slats extended and speedbrakes are to your airspeed. Libs don't get it. Also they social programs they support is PARASITE DRAG on the economy.

 

[AeroBoy]

GF,

Oil prices are not going down due to Bush, they're going down due to easing supply issues (read the f*ing story that you link to). The only way W could be credited with falling oil prices is if he mandated and implemented higher MPG ratings for cars/SUVs, and said cars/SUVs were already in service and therefore using less fuel, reducing demand for oil and thus increasing available supply while lowering prices due to the law of supply and demand.

Likewise, the stock markets are up because A) oil prices are falling due to easing supply (at least for the moment, though oil prices are still high at $45 a barrell) and B) the elections are over, thus ending the uncertainty of who will be running the country for the next 4 years.

Regarding your flawed view on taxes: if the rich or corporations don't pay tax, then the tax revenue has to come from somewhere to keep this country running (and pay for our war in Iraq). So who's left to foot the bill? Us little guys who work hard to make ends meet every month. Or, if we "stay the course" on the Bush tax cuts, then our children and grandchildren will be paying for our free ride. This is the parasite drag you should be worried about. Trickle-down economics didn't work in the 1980s, and it won't work now...or ever. The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order."

Bush in NOT God. Nor do I want God in the White House. Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

 

[Starman]

Aeroboy,

You might want to a little more research on what the Founding Fathers really thought about faith in God and it's place in this country. You've got 4 years to educate yourself.