Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Live4flyng]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I'm confused, what do you mean by this?

 

[netjetwife]

Maybe the "different animal" is a reference to their favored /"pet" status as compared to NJA? I doubt that is really what Publishers means, but it seems to be the difference mentioned most by the NJA pilots who are tired of being the "poor cousin" of the BH family.

 

[Publishers]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

 

[Live4flyng]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

Just as I thought. What exactly is the difference between NJI and NJA? I'm still waiting to hear your version. Now you are asking about EJM. You have some homework to do before coming here and trying to educate the pilots in this business.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Please explain this one to us too....

 

[Majik]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

 

[Publishers]

Is or is not this company still a joint deal with Gulfstream???Was it not geared for the Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft? To my best recollection, this was their concept for fractional Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft. Gulfstream insisted that it be separate from Netjets and that the pilot group be separate, partially because they did not want to deal with the kind of stuff we are seeing right now. They wanted the deal based at SAV.

EJM was to offer management services to people who did not want to do the share bit but wanted their aircraft chartered. I have three of these deals on the premises now.

Frankly Majik I do not try and remember all the history of these companies. In the mid eighties, I was in discussions with EJA about an executive position if the company was not sold.

Educating pilots in this business is more of a challenge than I want this late in life. I used to make some of mine study the company financials so they would have a better grasp on how difficult it is. Most figured out they would rather fly the plane.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW- My brother in law was a corporate pilot (in reference to your NBAA salary comment) I cannot acess this btw. He was not home 11 days a month. And when he was home he still had to go the office from 9-5. They moved to 3 different states with the same company in 6 years. Do your guys have to go in to the office when they are home?

If your benefits are better then Champus they must be outstanding.

Re; Retirement I dont know any cos that offer management retirement plans anymore. 401k with or mostly without match.

When you say managment- do you mean non union employees? Or employees who manage other people? Line employees? Doesnt belonging to a union provide benefits that non union employees do not enjoy? Why belong to one then? if you negotiate on your own, seems like you would have a stronger position individually.

I laughed at your parent/child analogy. (I hope that was appropriate). As if any good business decision can be made with the emotions of a parent or any good parent would make decisions with the objectivity of a business director.

Good luck- thanks for the information.

Ps TO ALL- if these other non union pilots make more money have you thought of looking into negotiating individually and not having a union?

 

[gunfyter]

First, congratulations upon the victory of your candidate and I applauded your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook for the future of our national economy. However, your mutual affinity for republican, conservative politics and organized labor presents an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, you are aware that the fortunes of organized labor are not improved by the dominance of the Republican Party in the White House and the Congress.

Oil falls to five-week low as supply fears ease...
Job Gains Strongest in Seven Months...

337,000 people added to payrolls...


When I made my prediction the Dow was 10,027 NASDAQ was 1942.

A few minutes ago DOW = 10,375 NASDAQ = 2033

GET READY TO ROCKnROLL! W is in charge and the situation is under control!

The mistake in unions supporting liberals is this... Liberals are very concerned with sharing the pie fairly so they tax businesses and the rich such that the pie SHRINKS... Conservatives untax business so that the pie increases for everybody. Thats what will help labor.

Taxes on the Rich and businesses is to the economy what flying with your gear down flaps and slats extended and speedbrakes are to your airspeed. Libs don't get it. Also they social programs they support is PARASITE DRAG on the economy.

 

[AeroBoy]

GF,

Oil prices are not going down due to Bush, they're going down due to easing supply issues (read the f*ing story that you link to). The only way W could be credited with falling oil prices is if he mandated and implemented higher MPG ratings for cars/SUVs, and said cars/SUVs were already in service and therefore using less fuel, reducing demand for oil and thus increasing available supply while lowering prices due to the law of supply and demand.

Likewise, the stock markets are up because A) oil prices are falling due to easing supply (at least for the moment, though oil prices are still high at $45 a barrell) and B) the elections are over, thus ending the uncertainty of who will be running the country for the next 4 years.

Regarding your flawed view on taxes: if the rich or corporations don't pay tax, then the tax revenue has to come from somewhere to keep this country running (and pay for our war in Iraq). So who's left to foot the bill? Us little guys who work hard to make ends meet every month. Or, if we "stay the course" on the Bush tax cuts, then our children and grandchildren will be paying for our free ride. This is the parasite drag you should be worried about. Trickle-down economics didn't work in the 1980s, and it won't work now...or ever. The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order."

Bush in NOT God. Nor do I want God in the White House. Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

 

[Starman]

Aeroboy,

You might want to a little more research on what the Founding Fathers really thought about faith in God and it's place in this country. You've got 4 years to educate yourself.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, how could our pilots go in to the office? They live scattered across the country. The ones that live nearby wouldn't even have to, considering that many are only AT HOME (as opposed to being away ) for 11 days a month. Here's what the AIN article had to say in their comparison of the two groups.

"But the salt in the wound is that what NetJets calls “industry-leading pilot pay” is barely half of the NBAA-reported salaries for those flying identical equipment in the corporate world. This despite the fact that fractional crews fly much more per month than typical corporate pilots and routinely have 14-hour duty days, in addition to being on the road for longer periods."

I can't access that info either, but I trust the pilots to know what they're talking about. Btw, that journal is usually pretty pro-management, my husband tells me, so their support of the NJ pilots strengths their case I think.

The NJ benefits seem to be in line w/other professional packages. It is the military retirement that has lost ground, so that is not the way to look at it. And the 2 are apples and oranges any way. As far as retirement goes, yes the 401K is what the pilots mention as well.

The parent/child analogy was used to lighten an often bleak subject; nonetheless, the narrow context in which it was used--fairness--is applicable. There ARE problems, legally and ethically, with a company not treating employees that perform the same duties, fairly. I hear the complaint often enough to believe that it will be an issue raised during negotiations.

Union advantage should not be undervalued. In the case of the pilots, undoubtly, there is strength in numbers. If not for the actions, allowed under UNION rules, 117 FOs would have no payraise in the near future. Pressing their case individually was not seen as a possibility to pilots that have to use the union's help to file a grievance when the company breaks the work rules. Furthermore, non-union workers have NO job protection. The lifestyle is so dufficult that job security should not have to be a concern to pilots that give up a lot to perform very demanding jobs for the company. My husband says that you might be able to find 5% of the pilots willing to go it on their own. The problems seen to date, are a result of poor leadership NOT the fact that the pilots are unionized. When reading the boards--pilots and wives--and talking to people, one hears much praise and confidence in the new leaders and in the unity of the pilot force, as a whole. That 82% that voted down the TA were also sending a message to the company regarding their new sense of purpose and determination. This is not just MY impression. It is a statement made over and over by the NJ pilots (and spouses) themselves.

Good luck to you and your family. Thanks for your interest.
Netjetwife

 

[gunfyter]

... Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

Of course you are wrong about everything else you said but I really like that one.

What the founders understood about Church and State was that the STATE is to not interfere with the free exercise of Religion. Bush is right in line with the founders.

Separation of Church and State appears no where in the Constitution. Where does it come from? It comes from Baptist doctrine. Was discussed in letters between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists who were worried about the State establishing official religions like in Europe.

Bush understands the church and state... Liberals do not.

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government,... " -- US Declaration

You do not want God in the White House.... However, this is where your rights come from. How will your rights be protected if God is absent? The Founders understood this... so does W.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJw
Quick question? What legal or ehtical problems arise from a company treating employees that perform the same job differently?

As long as it is not discrimination, religiously based, racially based, I do not think there are legal problems with this.

FF

 

[NJAowner]

Rich get richer

Aeroboy -- not getting into politics here but you say:

The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order.

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot. It the "rich" have less, more of them will fly commercial, therefore the economy will need fewer corporate/fractional/charter pilots.

Then you go to work at Home Depot?


Be careful what you wish for.

Fly safe.

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[Indigo]

Class warfare

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot.

Definitely have to agree with you here. Many people like to bash the "rich" as if there is some sort of moral superiority to being "poor". But I realize that if it wasn't for the "rich" I would be out of a job.

 

[CatYaaak]

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

How come you guys/girls don't even know your own recent history? History is reason for the pay disparity and union/non-union manifestation of NJA vs. NJI and is quite simple....

When NJI (EJI) was started in the mid-90s, NJA (EJA) was aready in full-swing complete with it's PFT/traning contract/union dues-paying mess. MOST importantly, it was a WELL-KNOWN fact in the corporate world that the pay at NJA (EJA) sucked. The REASON is sucked was because by and large the pilots working there came from pre-RJ regional airline backgrounds flying Saabs and Brazilias for even LESS pay than was offered at EJA, and whored themselves out for a chance to fly jets and bolster their resume's for the major airlines, where they wished to return. Hiring at the majors was booming, and for them, EJA was merely a stepping-stone and a way to get ahead. The flying NJA (EJA) was doing suited them, hopping around domestically.

Now enter the desire to expand into international corporate-type ops using Gulfstreams. In the EJI (NJI) set-up deal, Gulfstream had a say in who was going to be operating their product, as do insurance companies in a globe-trotting environment. This requirement meant that the company needed extensive TIME-IN-TYPE, international ops experienced pilots right "out of the box". Where could they find that scope of exerience?...well, certainly not at EJA (NJA) at that time, so they went where they existed....the military G-lV VIP ranks and poaching Part 91 corporate pilots already doing that job. EJI, Gulfstream, and the insurance companies required pilots who could come in and begin int'l operations "right now" and head off to places like Jakarta, Lagos, or Hong Kong with people who had been there and done that. This meant they had to try and poach pilots from elsewhere, because for most EJA (NJA) pilots, having flown to "Athens and Rome" meant you probably flew Brasilias for ASA and had been everywhere in Georgia.

Now, it's not like there were experienced G-lV pilots standing in lines waiting for jobs back then, and NBAA salaries were high. The ONLY attraction EJI (NJI) offered for any corporate pilot doing those jobs was offering a schedule with fixed days off...something that is usually inversely proportional to the range of the aircraft in the Part 91 world, and less-hands on work with regards to dispatching, planning, etc. In other words, the job was easier than what they were usually doing.

But even with a schedule, those pilots weren't going to fly for gutter wages, so in order to poach these pilots EJI (NJI) needed to offer at least a livable salary at the low-end of Part 91 NBAA averages, otherwise nobody would have signed-on. NO WAY were they going to go to work for EJA (NJA) wage scales! As it was, most of these pilots took a pay CUT to go to EJI, and having known quite a few of them personally, if you told them EJI would be a union shop with dues to pay and seniority systems, they wouldn't have even considered it at all. They could have always gone to the majors long before then if that's the lifestyle and environment they had wanted, and I can't recall anyone there ever considering it a "stepping stone", because where was there left to step to? They didn't feel any need to form a union.

So the disparity you see now is simply a matter of what the ground-floor requirements were to operate in two different arenas... EJA domestic vs. EJI intn'l, and where the company could find the people to fill the slots. It boiled down to what terms everyone would agree to go work for. Newbie, jet-hungry, PFTing pilots who probably hadn't even heard of the NBAA and believed union rhetoric, vs. pilots who had "been there done that" as far as corporate ops and salary negotiations are concerned and had commanded higher salaries by virtue of their experience. But as I mentioned before, even those EJI G-lV salaries you think are so high were less than what they were making in the real Part 91 world.

These days, you can get someone from NJA who doesn't have that scope of experience and toss him/her into the mix, but they couldn't afford all that hand-holding back in the beginning when they were just setting it up.

I don't see why this is any mystery.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, quick answer (my kids want me to watch a movie w/them) it is a form of discrimination in my book, and apparently that of many of the pilots, that the company which owns both businesses--NJA and NJI--pays the non-union pilots better than their union counterparts. That is the ethical side of the question. The legal issue has something to do w/a single carrier status lawsuit that I have seen mentioned as a possibility. If it has merit then I'm sure we'll hear more about it later.

RFB, just to toss 2 more on your pile before I dash off---SCOPE and having to be available to the company by 2pm of your last day off--which then ceases to be a day off. The rest of your list is right on target, and truly does go on and on!

Have a good weekend, everyone!
Netjetwife

 

[netjetwife]

Thank you, CatYaak.....

That was a history lesson that taught me a lot, and probably others, as well. Those of us who are new can benefit from the shared knowledge of those who have been in the business awhile.

In the spirit of one good turn deserves another, I'll explain the perspective of those who question the pay disparity between NJA and NJI. Some hired because of the post 9-11 furloughs in the majors/airlines, actually DO have that level of experience. Wives, like me, look at NJI and wonder--"What's the big deal?" My husband has flown throughout Europe and in the Middle East. He's flown across the Atlantic, refueling in mid-air. He can fly like that; why isn't he paid like that?

My husband has explained to me that the demographics/level of experience has changed a lot at NJA in the past few years. He tells me that it's not the "Mom and Pop" airline that it once was. Many of the 1000 pilots hired in the last 4 years are more like the NJI pilots than they are the early NJA pilots described in your history lesson. Now if we can just get one of those new guys to give us all a current events lesson, the learning will continue....

 

[kingtut]

From Fltops.com.

NetJets Pilots Overwhelmingly Reject Contract

11/5/2004

Sources told Fltops.com today that 82 percent of NetJets pilots have rejected the company’s recent contract offer. The International Brotherhood of Teamsters has also rejected the local union’s move to build a new MEC to replace the officers whose terms expired on October 31, 2004. IBT says the MEC vote was invalidated due to irregularities at the local. Members of the local are reportedly under investigation by the IBT International, as well as the FBI. No local members are involved in the controversy.



IBT officials are expected to hold new MEC elections soon so the negotiating team can return to the bargaining table.

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[Diesel]

catyaak you couldn't be more wrong about how the nja nji thing came about.

Gulfstream and Executive Jet partnered up to offer a share of gulfstreams and to increase sales. Problem was Executive Jet was a union carrier and there was no way Gulfstream was going to have union pilots fly their airplanes. Gulfstream has no unions on property and since they were partners they had a saying in who flew the planes.

So RTS uses the guise of needing qualified pilots to fly the Gulfstreams to try and break the union so that Executive Jet Aviation would fall in line. Problem was the A part didn't want to go with the I part.

Some pilots went to gulfstream and left those trying to keep the union created some major bad blood. Other twisting of the knife was a higher pay scale, better benefits yada yada yada.

So anytime the union acomplishes something the NJI guys reap our benefits. All the work the union hotel comittee has done. NJI stays at the same hotels now. All the work the union hotel comittee get's done to make sure we have a hang out room at TEB embassy with free movies and internet. Guess what NJI guys hang out there. What about 7n7 oh yeah NJI got it after we had it.

It's a textbook example of divide and divide some more. If our crap mec had some nuts they would have filed a single carrier status but that's another story for another page.

 

[GVFlyer]

The initial contract between Gulfstream and NetJets was a Bill Boisture - Richard Santulli deal. Forstmann and Santulli are too much alike to have gotten along easily. Gulfstream provided the first three "core" aircraft because Santulli could not capitalize the deal at that time. It was jointly decided that only well experienced Gulfstream pilots would be hired for the new venture in that safety was to be a key marketing point and buyers would be guaranteed highly qualified Gulfstream pilots. To draw and retain the kind of pilots desired, starting and subsequent salaries were set to be industry leading (and still are).


Within a year EJI was profitable enough to give back the original three core aircraft and purchase their own to replace them.


Other than for maintenance, joint marketing and sales are the only relationships currently existing between Gulfstream and NJI. Gulfstream Shares sells Shares to existing Gulfstream customers and large cabin aircraft owners. NJI sells Gulfstream Shares to mid and small cabin aircraft owners as well as "Concept Buyers."

The existing relationship between NJI and Gulfstream is a close one. Raynor Reavis was VP for Gulfstream Shares, left Gulfstream to work with Keven Russell as Vice Presient for NetJets Sales, then returned to Gulfstream where he is presently Vice President Sales and Marketing.

As an aside, I can tell you that the pilots at NJI don't want anything to do with the union operation and are frankly amazed at NJA's continuing interest in them. We had a couple of 1/8 th shares and under NJI's rules the owning companies' pilots can fly in command on NJI aircraft as long as they meet NJI qualification and experience requirements as well as passing written, oral and flight checks. As such, I flew as a NJI Captain on our share aircraft for over a year and got to know many of the line pilots very well. I also know the Bluffton leadership group from our efforts in initially establishing the EJI program as well as from working special joint projects with them. I think I have a pretty balanced view of the organization and it is my observation that the NJI pilots are a very happy group with things just as they are.

The Sales / Marketing agreement with Gulfstream is the only relationship with a manufacturer that NetJets has in that NJA has broken their agreement with Boeing, returned three BBJ's, and is operating the remaining three Boeings as primarily charter aircraft.


GV

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!

 

[gunfyter]

The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order.

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot. It the "rich" have less, more of them will fly commercial, therefore the economy will need fewer corporate/fractional/charter pilots.

Then you go to work at Home Depot?

I think the blue vest will look good on him.

 

[Publishers]

Separation

Perhaps someone else needs to look at the separation of church and state. There is plenty of evidence that Congress did not mean what is commonly thought of as spearation. In fact, you will not even find it mentioned in the first amendment. That same Congress even bought Bibles, started sessions with prayer, and generally acknowledged God existed throughout its existance.


The concept was actually started in letters from Thomas Jefferson. It was in fact the protection of religion, not the prevention of that was the concern as in England the church and state were one.

 

[gunfyter]

Cut it out Publishers... I can't be seen agreeing with you in public. As Governer, Thomas Jefferson the originator of the phrase also had endorsed Bible reading in Virginia Public Schools

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!


STOP TALKING ALL ABOUT THE MONEY! WE NEED TO FIX OTHER PARTS OF THE CONTRACT TOO !!

 

[Publishers]

Discrimination Issue.

I was formerly an operating officer for a non airline company. They did have mechanics that were unionized only in certain states. It was company policy that the non union mechanics would always be paid slightly more than the union people negotiated for.

No one in the company would ever have benefits less than what the union people were getting.

 

[FAcFriend]

thanks Publishers. I see the frustration brewing here and I am unable to understand the union points on some issues.

Since 9/11 pilots have been furloughed from majors, the pilots at NJA have become better qualified than the pilots who joined the company previously. Many of the newer pilots are as well qualified and trained as NJI pilots.

But that seems to be a function of the economy - they can get, hire and retain better qualified individuals at the same or in some cases better prices than their less qualified counterparts. Hence my programmer analogy.

What am I missing?

Now, that said, I do agree with some of the issues the pilots have gripes with- recording conversations in the cock pit that can be used for discipline. Sounds like big brother to me-

Also if you can get more pay- go for it. But i do not see the logic in the argument.