Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[rajflyboy]

TA won't pass unless Local 284 tampers with the vote!

 

[netjetwife]

Yes voters that have signed the petition? I have no doubt that some have done so. Is the number large enough to affect the usefulness of the petition count in gauging the outcome of the TA vote? That I do doubt--very seriously.

Hounding? Please be fair, Niteflyr. Being asked repeatedly, by different pilots each time, is evidence of union building and should not be characterized as "hounding". My husband and other pilots we know, are asking for signatures. They haven't resorted to arm-twisting; they wouldn't do that. Furthermore, it isn't necessary, anyway. Local 284 drove the pilots away by their own actions. That "yes voters" have also signed the petition is proof of that fact.

Caving/Conforming? They shouldn't do something they don't believe in. Instead of shooting the messenger, learn to say no. Here's one they can try......"I'll take a look at that later on my own, thanks anyway."

Fearful? Yes, I have had exchanges--phone and emails--with some so fearful that they have become irrational in their arguments. The selfish ones recognize the flaws (in the TA) but they just don't care. Both groups are hard to reason with; fortunately, they represent the fringe element.

Standing on the right side of history,
NJW/P2P team member

 

[rajflyboy]

Looks like Netjetwife is standing strong here!

 

[gunfyter]

Will be looking for another job....

 

[netjetwife]

And NO ONE has really answered the question?

What Happens if the TA passes? I know what the denizens of this board WANT to believe, but enough of that. BE HONEST, WHAT IF THE TA PASSES? What happens next guys and gals. Where do ya go and what do ya do?

I should think that many pilots have a plan B that they'd fall back on. Hoping for the best while preparing for the worst is prudent behavior. I also believe that there have been enough irregularities to warrant an investigation in the UNLIKELY event that the TA were to pass. For the sake of argument, I'll pretend that the TA count was honest and it still failed. Over time, NJA would not be able to attract and retain the level of experience they had previously when pilots were willing to take a chance on a growing company. Standards would be lowered. Recent accidents show us where that leads. I don't think that's a place anyone wants to go.

 

[niteflyr]

I was merely quoting how I have had it explained to me, "hounding" was not the term I came up with so don't jump all over me now NJW, believe it or not I am trying to be on the SU side. SU themselves just put out an announcement apoligizing for the way they have come across to certain people, many have been offended by some of the tactics their followers have used. This is not my first union or first vote, its always funny how they seem to pass but no one ever admits they voted for it. I say again...I hope I am wrong. Back to lurking I guess, didn't mean to get anyone worked up just by giving my observations....

 

[rajflyboy]

Having a plan B is an important thing right now. It will be interesting to see Santulli and Boisture's next move if the T/A gets voted down. Never know what they might try and do next!

 

[netjetwife]

No need to leave Niteflyr---

I'm sorry if my post was perceived as an attack; I didn't mean for it to be. I, too, was just trying to share my observations. There probably are some over-zealous pilots in the group. In a pilotforce numbering over 1800, that is going to happen. I truly believe, though, that the vast majority are trying to conduct themselves as professionally as possible--esp, given the current situation.

Again, I say that there is a disinformation campaign going on, and it appears to me that you have been a victim of it. There is no wide-spread "hounding" to get signatures. It simply isn't necessary and most pilots are smart enough to realize that such behavior would only hurt their cause.

I'm pleased to hear that you support SU. SU is a huge organization--a movement if you will--and not just a slate of 5 candidates. Hundreds have volunteered, including my husband (and me), to be a part of the unity building process. In spite of the difficulties we currently face, I see this as an exciting, hopeful time for the NJA pilots and their families.

 

[rajflyboy]

Netjetwife:


Your a pretty good writer. You should write for a Newspaper in the Springs!

 

[old*art]

And NO ONE has really answered the question?
What Happens if the TA passes? I know what the denizens ..........

It is reported that there is already an IBT investigation by the legal dept and I am sure some sort of lawsuit would follow. There is no way this TA could legally pass.

Getting back to the topic of this thread, there is nothing unfair about the proposed TA - it is just unacceptable vs what we have now.

 

[netjetwife]

Rfb, thanks for the compliment. Words come easily when you truly believe everything you say--and I do, very much so!

OA, those reports are my basis for the suggestion that the pilots will cry "foul" if the TA were to pass. That stack of digital copies (of the ballots) says it won't.

Back to our topic of fairness....do tell me, what isn't UNFAIR about demanding that a pilot be available by 2pm on his last DAY OFF. According to 91K, that requirement makes it then a work day. Even more blatant is the company plan to have the pilots do part of their Recurrent Training on their on computer, on their own time. Again, what isn't UNFAIR about working for FREE? BTW, that ASSUMES that everyone has A computer and/or internet access. Not all do. So many other workers, without highly specialized skills, are paid more than the FOs (and even some of the Cpts) and they are home every night with their families, not to mention, their jobs never make them responsible for the lives of others. This, you say, is NOT unfair??...merely unacceptable??? Oh yes, while we're on the subject of fairness, how about those FAs that are paid MORE than the PILOTS??

 

[Majik]

Gunfyter,

You need to take that crystal ball back to the psychic hotline clearance sale...it doesn't work.

Voted yes AND signed the petition.

Hey Hawkered,
How did that "yes vote" work out for you? Want to rent a crystal ball?

 

[El Chupacabra]

Gunfyter,

You got the number to that Hotline? I want to know who will win the MEC election.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW
All of my friends husbands who work in corporate america have to go to school and do training to keep their certs up on their own time. The cos may or maynot pay for it but it has to be done on your own time.

Drs have to keep their boards up on their own time. What makes it different for pilots? (educate me, please).

I cant believe you havent even discussed the fact of the bonus that went along with this TA.

Havent you seen that joke that says - a successful husband is one who makes more than his wife can spend and a successful wife is one who can find one of them. ?

Thanks guys, I am not a pilot though I have enormous respect for you.
I have alot of pilots in my family, young ones and old ones. Be safe. Its not the same world it used to be. Gotta go to work..

Thanks

 

[gunfyter]

No psychic required.


All the NO TO REJECT votes on the TA will be votes for Strong Union slate. May even pick up to 100 Yes voters. Crystal ball says, Close to 90% victory for Strong Union.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, I'm very well aware that other professionals do training/study on their own time; however they also receive a PROFESSIONAL salary that justifies that requirement. Therein lies the difference and the problem. When NJA pays a professional wage, the pilots will have no complaints against the new program. As an FO, my husband made only $28K last year--one of the "poorest of the poor" in this pilotforce. Please understand that NJA pilots are professionals that deserve to be treated as such by their company and are standing up for themselves. The "working for free" issue is just one of several examples of lack of respect that they are addressing in their contract negotiations. If the pilots in your family were in the same situation, I trust that you'd be supportive of their cause.

You probably haven't seen much discussion of the "bonus" because hardly anyone feels that what was offered is even worth considering. To begin with, it should never be looked upon as a "signing bonus" which implies some generosity on the part of the company. In truth, the pay in question is the RETRO PAY that the company OWES to the pilots. Their contract was up 3 yrs ago and their pay raise should be retroactive to that date. The company has been charging the owners increased rates to cover the salary increases all this time. If the pilots settle for a much smaller "bonus" rather than the back pay that they are rightfully owed, there will be no incentive for the company to ever settle the contract in a timely manner. Getting away with paying a signing bonus only encourages them to drag their feet when the contract is up.

There is very little interest in the topic of a signing bonus, but mention RETRO PAY and you will get an entirely different reaction. Again, if you put the pilots in your own family in this situation, I'm sure that you'd feel quite sympathetic.

I, too, have great respect for pilots; I think that is obvious to all who know me and/or read my posts. I also think highly of their wives and children--it isn't an easy lifestyle. My work awaits me, as well. Have a good weekend everyone.
Netjetwife

PS What about that 82%?! Isn't that AWESOME! Congratulations guys!

 

[netjetwife]

No psychic required.


All the NO TO REJECT votes on the TA will be votes for Strong Union slate. May even pick up to 100 Yes voters. Crystal ball says, Close to 90% victory for Strong Union.

Looking at the tea leaves...lol...in the bottom of my cup....yes, Gunfyter, I see it the same way. Already posted that opinion on the NJ Wives board. Common sense, I'm thinking. Isn't our own Hawkered a good example of those who now regret their vote. I tried to tell you to show more faith, Hawk. Glad to hear that you're going to join us for the next vote! 90% sounds entirely feasible to me!
NJW

 

[FAcFriend]

I would be happy to ask all these questions in a personal note, if everyone would prefer. First thanks for your kind reply.

Second: 28k is a low salary in any industry (white or blue collar) for a mid career worker. Certainly it debunks the myth of old when we thought everyone would grow up to fly for Pan Am. Of course, this is similar to what happened to computer programmers recently. I know so many who had to take jobs just because they had to feed their families. (and Cobra is so expensive) My girlfriend's husband makes 1/3 of what he used to. (no joke one third)

This is the hard part of being in a union (I think). They make mid career pilots start over. So even though the contract was up the company gave no pilots raises for three years while it was in negotiation? They didnt even honor the old contract during this time?

Are there better paying jobs for mid career pilots who have to move jobs like your husband? Are all the us air pilots (or others like them) who are furloughed having to start over like your husband at the bottom of some union scale?

Was your TA negotiated by union guys who have been in the union a long time or a short time. Do you think it makes a difference?

Thanks
PS Stay at moms have the most demanding, physically and psycholgical jobs. Right next to pilots

 

[Hawkered]

I would have to say that The Teamsters history has not boded well for airline or any aviation interest.

The very thought of a Local President fraudulently and criminally mailing out election ballots and holding the pilot group hostage in an illegal attempt to maintain control of our livelihoods does not sit well with this member.

I am hopeful for the future with the leadership of Strong Union and the determination of spouses like Netjet Wife. You have my support.

We need to get rid of Local 284 and prosecute any possibility of illegal behaviors.

 

[netjetwife]

Thanks for asking--

Hawkered, thanks for the support.. I always knew your instincts would lead you to join us, eventually. I think 284 has sealed their own fate. The proof is on our side that we have just cause to separate, and the head honchos of Teamsters have been put on alert that they either work with us or lose us altogether. It's pretty clear from their intervention that they are taking the warning seriously. I think we should let IBT legal handle the mess while we concentrate on getting a good contract. Our attention and money need to go towards that goal, as a group. That said, I'd not be surprised if some individuals pressed the case on their own. You certainly see support for that on the SU board. Without a doubt, bylaws were broken and voting rights trampled!

FAcFriend, I think our conversation is relevant to the topic......so to answer your questions/comments.....

Yes the computer industry was hard hit as well; I have a nephew that has had a struggle. But there is a BIG difference between companies that are clearly having to cut back to survive and those that waste money --the NJ pilots see it firsthand--while claiming they can't pay fair wages. They stopped the fear campaign and now admit they are profitable.

I am also bothered by the big pay gaps seen in aviation, industry wide. Sure some difference is justified, but I don't, personally, think the feast and famine approach often seen is fair. Pilots say that aviation is in a turmoil and undergoing lots of changes. I hope when things settle down that there is more balance, pay wise, across the industry. I refuse to believe that any pilot would be less careful w/the lives of 10 passengers than the pilot that has 100. The defeated TA had a pay by weight scale that many of the pilots disliked on fairness. Perhaps, NJA pilots will be able to lead the way in that search for balance. After all, the company has hired about 1000 pilots in the last 4 years and there are less than 1900 total. That puts the majority in the low pay range so I'd be surprised if a top heavy contract were passed. Too many families know how hard it is at the bottom.

I suppose the laid off pilots do face that ugly climb again. I feel badly for them. It just doesn't seem right, does it? I do hope it changes in the future. I know that my husband has vowed not to vote for a contract that has a subpar salary for FOs. Pilots should not make less than a whole host of other workers (including blue collar ones) as is the case at NJA, currently.

The pilots at NJA have been working under the old contract, and most--82%-- felt that it was better than the TA. There was NOT a COLA built in the old contract and the only raises were those for longevity. The pay has eroded over the last 6yrs--3yr contract plus 3 yrs to negotiate a TA that failed to offer more when inflation was counted. Many of those hired in the last 2 yrs or so, were told at their interviews that they'd upgrade in a few months, but that didn't happen and the company didn't adjust the FO pay for them. Historically, there hasn't been a group of FOs at the bottom pay scale this long before (to my knowledge). That is why there was a successful move for the senior pilots to withhold bids so that 117 FOs could get bypass pay--an awesome show of unity by the pilots!

My husband says that the demographics of the NJ pilotforce has changed a lot in the last few years. There are more furloughed pilots from the majors where pay was better and that is why you'll hear comments about self-worth from many of the NJA pilots. The MEC (5 pilots) that negotiated the TA were quite senior. So yes, I/we think that was part of the problem. I suspect the biggest factor, however was simply a personality problem. They weren't into communication or input from others, a style that is completely opposite of our new leadership, where we have heard more in the last few months than pilots did in the past 3 yrs. The pilots are going to be starting fresh w/new leaders, surveys to back them up, and out from under the thumb of the local chapter of the Teamsters that were also part of the disaster of the failed TA.

Thanks for supporting stay-home mothers. There are many young families in the group who have made a lot of financial sacrifices to keep the mom at home. I talk to them on our wives board. Of those that are working outside the home to supplement their husbands' income, a high percentage have expressed a wish to stay at home. Teachers frequently say that they see a difference in kids with stay home moms. My children are at the top of the class and I don't think it's just a coincidence. With the amount of time that pilots spend away from home (not easy on kids), it certainly should be financially possible for one parent to be at home full time. These are the children of professionals and their lives should be a reflection of that status. Good schools, safe neighborhoods, and extra activities are taken for granted in those homes. A pilot should be able to provide the same for his family. The NJA pilotforce is looking for a contract that meets that standard.

Thanks for your interest. Best wishes to you and your family.
Netjetwife

 

[NJAFracPilot]

To all of you who voted No, thanks for condemning us to three more years of Citation II pay. My family could have used the money. Voting down a pay raise on the day Delta takes a 32.5% pay cut and when every other pilot in the industry is wondering if he's going to have a job tomorrow even if he takes a pay cut, is just plain dumb. What do you think we're going to get? NetJets lost $310 million dollars last year. Do you think the MEC just turned stupid overnight or when management opened up the books to them, did they see what NetJets could pay and stay in business.

 

[kingtut]

Just a couple of questions and nothing more.

What if the recently defeated TA was as good as it gets?

What if the next pass at a TA is not as good? Then what?

Just a comment and nothing more.

It seems the TA process is like making love to a gorilla. We can not stop until the gorilla is ready.

 

[Diesel]

so nja fracpilot has one post and its thankimg everone for screwing his family. i smell a troll.

in case u haven't figured it out it wasn't just about the money it was the work rules too!

yeah i want to be on this payscale fpr a while. whatever. i saw the new ta as an insult to me and the rest of the fracs. we are trying to set the bar here for everyone its not just about you.

by the way nja made a profit last year which was offset by losses at nje and middle east.

one last thing to all the wives posting on the board. i realize your frustrated and angry but enough allready. you writing war amd peace on a message board isnt going to change anythimg. please go easy on the post button you dont need to reply to evey post. we got it allready

sorry for the spelling im typing on my pda

 

[x402]

To all of you who voted No, thanks for condemning us to three more years of Citation II pay. My family could have used the money. Voting down a pay raise on the day Delta takes a 32.5% pay cut and when every other pilot in the industry is wondering if he's going to have a job tomorrow even if he takes a pay cut, is just plain dumb. What do you think we're going to get? NetJets lost $310 million dollars last year. Do you think the MEC just turned stupid overnight or when management opened up the books to them, did they see what NetJets could pay and stay in business.

Hey, you're welcome, some of us (82%) have to look out for all you low self worth folks. You can thanks us all later.

There are few of us that don't need the money but there are at least 82% with enough sense to know this MEC turned stupid over time and bought into the companies bs, and that a first offer is never the best offer.
Do we really need to talk about RCA's, home by 0300, CVR's, bonus dollars for limited senior pilots. We can do so much better, and we will.

 

[LR45JI]

NetJets lost $310 million dollars last year.

I know you are just a flamer but just to set the record straight:

2003 BH Annual Report stated: "The company has a modest operating profit in the US., but was more than offset by a #32 million loss on aircraft invetory and by continued losses in Europe."

In the 2nd quarter interum, BH reported that Revenues were up 45% and aircraft sales were up 90% over the same period past year. However, they convientlly left out P/L.

Guess what 04' annual won't look much better either. We are dumping the core fleet of the 560, H-1000 & VII and will take a lose (on purpose) again from "aircraft invetory".

You must have worked for Enron because you were ONLY off by 278 Million or 89.6%!!!

 

[El Chupacabra]

To all of you who voted No, thanks for condemning us to three more years of Citation II pay. My family could have used the money. Voting down a pay raise on the day Delta takes a 32.5% pay cut and when every other pilot in the industry is wondering if he's going to have a job tomorrow even if he takes a pay cut, is just plain dumb. What do you think we're going to get? NetJets lost $310 million dollars last year. Do you think the MEC just turned stupid overnight or when management opened up the books to them, did they see what NetJets could pay and stay in business.

The needs of the Many, outweigh the needs of the Few, or the One.

How do you know how much money the company lost? Mr Bill says we didn't lose money.

 

[gunfyter]

Dude,

Don't worry. The TA payscale for PICs is exactly the same as Columbus Ohio Transportation Authority busdrivers (UAW). www.COTA.com. They are hiring. If you like that TA payscale you can match it there. You are NOT condemned to S-II pay as long as you have a HS diploma or GED and clean driving record. Also they are getting Light Rail which is expected to pay even more. http://www.cotafasttrax.com/what_is_light_rail.php

 

[LR45JI]

Just a couple of questions and nothing more.

What if the recently defeated TA was as good as it gets?

That's a real but highly unlikely outcome. Some mgmt has already started to downplay the outcome of the TA with comments like, 'Well, your MEC said that's what you wanted and we took their word on it...we felt it could have been better' [paraphrased]

What if the next pass at a TA is not as good? Then what?

Again, I think that's impossiable becuase we were basically working with a uncomplete document; there were something like 13 or 17 LOU's to clarify language and "implant" language that didn't exist. For most of us, there are deal-killers that don't consist of money and the company got with no impact on the bottom line (i.e. "Use of CVR").

 

[kingtut]

LR45JI, thanks for the reply. Time will tell but it will not be before the gorilla is done.

 

[gunfyter]

Originally Posted by kingtut
What if the next pass at a TA is not as good? Then what?

You think the company is Stupid?