Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[CatYaaak]

The NBAA Compensation and Benchmark Survey

Where for example the 90th percentile pay for a 6th year Captain on an aircraft of GW > than 35,000 lbs is $123,585. About 60K more than NJA pay.

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

 

[Majik]

Don't worry, these people would never let the reality of the world enter their perception of how things should be even when confronted with facts. Frankly, while I do not know everyones pay, I suspect that there is not one pilot flying corporate on this airport making over $100k except perhaps the captain that came from SFO. They use a $300 a day co-pilot for their flights.

You want reality? I'm a 5 year captain and I make less than the $300 a day co-pilot you refer to. Still think I am out of touch with reality?

 

[Majik]

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

OK Yaaak, what benchmark do you suggest we use for a comparative baseline?
You say I can't use other fractionals, because they don't use collective bargaining and that their pay is based off of ours.
You say I can't base it off part 91 pilots flying the same type plane as I fly because they don't use collective bargaining to establish their wages.

So who are the other "apples" that identically match NJA pilot's situation and would be acceptable to use for your benchmark?

 

[gunfyter]

I think NJI is underpaid as well... But they LOSE money and make more than NJA pilots... So the SEC filings are irrelevant.

 

[gunfyter]

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

I am comparing myself to those who fly the same equipment and do the same job... Only I do it better and more productively. And I am smarter and better looking too. So we apply a correction factor to the 90th percentile in the survey to account for the higher pruductivity and flexibility...

AND...the Answer is

$161,896​

​

​

for an NJA CE-750 Captain in the 6th year. But if I only get the 90th percentile NBAA pay I can live with it.

In the end, The compelling argument to be made is a release to work action. That is the only thing that will make them see sense.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Why can't we compare ourselves to 91 operators? The company does.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I asked a couple of times how NetJets pay would compare to that of the other fractional providers if the TA was approved. No one answered, but someone did PM me the addy for Airlinepilot.com. The answer is, "About the same as Flight Options, Flex Jet and Citation Shares."

So next I wondered why these NetJet guys thought they should be paid more than other pilots doing the same job. Is it because NetJets is more profitable then the other fractionals?

So I went to the SEC, something we here in DC well know how to do. The following is from Berkshire Hathaway's most recent 10k filing:

I looked at the most recent 10q as well and it supports the above quoted statement from BH's legal mouthpiece, Deloitte and Thouche.

So I guess NetJets isn't wildly profitable either, just bigger.

It doesn't seem right to compare NetJet pay to corporate pilot's salaries because that's not what you do. Your job seems more like charter operations than corporate, but that's not quite right either. It would seem that the most appropriate way to determine if your pay is fair would be to compare it to others that do exactly what you do, the other fractionals.

So why should you guys get paid more than they do?

-SkyGirl-
(anybody know where I can get a flame retartdant suit? )

Don't worry pal. We're figuring it out.

P.S. you sound like NJA management.

 

[Publishers]

problem

You want reality? I'm a 5 year captain and I make less than the $300 a day co-pilot you refer to. Still think I am out of touch with reality?

Well he may not agree-- he has no benefits, only flies when they need him versus another guy, has to do all his own record keeping, most flights he is called for are weekends and holidays. No minimum guarantee, not even a promise of full time.

He has a type in the Challenger, over 1500 in type, and 5000 total

 

[FLYLOW22]

Publisher,


Do you know that you listed your ratings as "SMELI"? Are you done pretending to be a pilot. Go file some paperwork at Easton.

 

[Daveman]

Publisher,


Do you know that you listed your ratings as "SMELI"? Are you done pretending to be a pilot. Go file some paperwork at Easton.

This is the funniest quote I've read on fltightinfo.

 

[Majik]

Well he may not agree-- he has no benefits, only flies when they need him versus another guy, has to do all his own record keeping, most flights he is called for are weekends and holidays. No minimum guarantee, not even a promise of full time.

He has a type in the Challenger, over 1500 in type, and 5000 total

Again, if he is happy doing that then more power to him. There are probably a lot of guys that would pay money to fly his Challenger. Does that mean he should reduce his standards and work for less? There's always someone willing to do it cheaper in this business. You get what you negotiate. That's what we plan to do. Thanks for the opinion and lending us your expertise. Hey, wait a minute, did our MEC contact you for negotiating advice?

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Publisher,


Do you know that you listed your ratings as "SMELI"?

SMELI stinks, me thinks!

 

[CatYaaak]

OK Yaaak, what benchmark do you suggest we use for a comparative baseline?
You say I can't use other fractionals, because they don't use collective bargaining and that their pay is based off of ours.
You say I can't base it off part 91 pilots flying the same type plane as I fly because they don't use collective bargaining to establish their wages.

So who are the other "apples" that identically match NJA pilot's situation and would be acceptable to use for your benchmark?

The other fracs dont use collective bargaining, but at least they are fracs with a similar "fly for revenue" economic model. That's comparing apples to apples...some being red and some green.

You can "base" your comparison off Part 91 operators if you want, and the lack of collective bargaining has nothing to do with this being "apples to oranges" (that aspect just provides the irony). It's apples to oranges because your job doesn't exist in a structure even remotely resembling a Part 91 flight department in terms of where the money comes from, who you work for and are beholden to, or what justifies it's existence. You and the "owner" in back aren't fellow employees of the same company.

If anything, you're closer to charter or management company pilots , because basically all an "owner" in your frac world does is contract for block time with an outside company to provide transport services, with attached tax advantages (thank the lobbyists for that one). Go outside your niche market in terms of aircraft use per year, and even those advantages evaporate. You're slaves to the direct generation of revenue by flying your airplanes and charging management fees to make a profit after paying every employee that works to make your endeavor run...No Part 91 operation ever generates direct revenue or functions in that way.

But I do understand the desire to use Part 91 flight departments as a comparative measure..don't blame you there (corporate pay to top off the benefit of airline schedules and crewing, gateway flexibility, and support systems/personnel...hope you get it!)..but except for the superficiality of flying the same types of equipment and parking on the same ramps, there really is no basis to use them as a yardstick.

What you're up against is this....if you become as expensive for whatever reason (and like it or not, salaries do play a part in figuring out expenses) as a corporate flight department, you wind up shrinking that niche you cater to...those that realize the economic advantages. If you do that, then there's no reason for them to sign those contracts or keep you around in the first place.

If they all did that of course...dumped you... you'd have a lot more Part 91 flight departments around and you could go find a job with one of them....just don't go to work for peanuts! Consult that NBAA Benchmark survey you've finally got in your hands (because it would be applicable in reality instead of just the fantasy like we have here), but learn from your past mistakes, and consult it BEFORE you agree to take the job.

 

[gunfyter]

Here is an interesting equation for you Mr Cat...


If I take NBAA pay for a Citation X and a G-IV for any year and percentile... then divide I get a ratio of about .89.

If I multiply that ratio times NJI G-IV pay.... I get a lot more than I am making now. In fact I am about 40K short.

 

[rajflyboy]

It Ain't all about the money folks. Lifestyle and work rules are a big part of the problems with this contract!!!!!!

 

[flyingforfood]

Take this question back to Capital Hill with you "SkyGirl", "What is it when you make someone work for no wages,....Indentured slavery?" So what is it when a company requires you to pay to work?... Personnaly I'd rather be a slave...

A little insight here. This is exactly what has been going on in the aviation industry for the last 5-10 years. The problem here is that no one has questioned the basic constitutionallity of this practice? Well...what do you think....Companies like, oh, I don't know....COMAIR, dba, Delta Airlines....GULFSTREAM INTERNATIONAL....PENNICAL, dba NWA....Yes the one that just crashed a 50 seat Regional Jet in Northwest Airlines paint scheme....The list is loooong....

So what does all this mean? What my brothers at NJ are trying to negotiate on is simply a "fair deal". Do you understand that concept? I don't mean to sound tart here I actually mean that. Do you understand? The problem is a systemic cancer that somehow crawled into the aviation industry years ago simply by greedy cargo operations and fly by night people pushers. What fueled it is the sad fact that we love our job. We all love to fly. Yes, ALL of us. But what the new pilots didn't understand, is their effect on the BIG PICTURE. Pilots are by nature a bit egotistic. To believe that a few new-commers would change the pay structures of a hundred or so employers would be a hard thing for any industry to swallow. So here we are. Its hard to buy a car when the salesman already knows what you will pay....As in all ecosystems, Darwin prooved that evolution will play out. So will the 55-60 year old Captains at the majors. Last time I checked there were 50-60% more aircraft flying for the majors than any other....So only time will tell...


Yes....time will tell....

 

[JohnDoe]

What??????

 

[Daveman]

----good luck guys.

 

[bigD]

All right, I'm about a bottle of wine deep, and I know I'm gonna regret this, but:

I've been following this Netjets thing for awhile, and hell, I'm not knowledgeble enough to make any kind of helpful comment. And lord knows I'm not in any position to help the pilots' situation any. But I will say this:

Any Netjets pilot overnighting in Austin gets a free beer on me. Period. If I can't get you a good TA, at least I can buy you a beer. All I ask in return is a small tidbit on info on the plane you fly. Deal?

 

[rajflyboy]

Its a Deal Big D!

Man........ How about them Steelers ?? Big BEN looking pretty good last week!