Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Gulfstream 200]

heck all is good so long as one is on the gubament teet.


(explains a whole lot)

 

[NJAowner]

GF -- that's fine. I just wanted to clarify whether you thought that 90% of the pilots made more or 90% made less.

Fly safe.

 

[Publishers]

Don't worry, these people would never let the reality of the world enter their perception of how things should be even when confronted with facts. Frankly, while I do not know everyones pay, I suspect that there is not one pilot flying corporate on this airport making over $100k except perhaps the captain that came from SFO. They use a $300 a day co-pilot for their flights.

 

[Mr. Irrelevant]

Why is NetJets TA Unfair?
I asked a couple of times how NetJets pay would compare to that of the other fractional providers if the TA was approved. No one answered, but someone did PM me the addy for Airlinepilot.com. The answer is, "About the same as Flight Options, Flex Jet and Citation Shares."

So next I wondered why these NetJet guys thought they should be paid more than other pilots doing the same job. Is it because NetJets is more profitable then the other fractionals?

So I went to the SEC, something we here in DC well know how to do. The following is from Berkshire Hathaway's most recent 10k filing:


"Flight services

This segment includes FlightSafety, a leading provider of high technology training to operators of aircraft and ships and NetJets, the world’s leading provider of fractional ownership programs for general aviation aircraft. FlightSafety’s worldwide clients include corporations, regional airlines, the military and government agencies. The decline in revenues was split between FlightSafety (about $96 million) and NetJets (about $310 million). A decline in FlightSafety training revenues accounted for most of that businesses revenue decline. The decline in training revenues was due to a decline in regional airline training somewhat offset by increased U.S. Government training revenues. The decline in revenues at NetJets was due to a reduction of revenues from sales of aircraft of $514 million partially offset by increased flight services and other revenues of about $204 million. Pre-tax earnings from these businesses was $72 million in 2003 as compared to $225 million in 2002. The results for 2002 include a gain of $60 million from the sale of a partnership interest to Boeing and the results for 2003 include the recognition of pre-tax charges of $69 million related to write downs of certain simulators and aircraft inventory. Excluding the aforementioned gain and write downs, “normal earnings” from these businesses were $141 million in 2003 versus $165 million in 2002. The reduction in combined “normal” pre-tax earnings from these businesses is due to reduced “normal” pre-tax earnings at FlightSafety of $34million somewhat offset by improved results at NetJets where its pre-tax loss before write downs was $9 million in 2003 versus about $19 million in 2002. The corporate aviation business has slowed significantly in the past few years which has hurt FlightSafety’s results. NetJets continues to be the leader in the fractional ownership field."


I looked at the most recent 10q as well and it supports the above quoted statement from BH's legal mouthpiece, Deloitte and Thouche.

So I guess NetJets isn't wildly profitable either, just bigger.

It doesn't seem right to compare NetJet pay to corporate pilot's salaries because that's not what you do. Your job seems more like charter operations than corporate, but that's not quite right either. It would seem that the most appropriate way to determine if your pay is fair would be to compare it to others that do exactly what you do, the other fractionals.

So why should you guys get paid more than they do?

-SkyGirl-
(anybody know where I can get a flame retartdant suit? )

I don't have a dog in this fight but.......just looking at a BH filing doesn't tell the whole story. Please dont be naive SkyGirl. Management will absolutely manipulate numbers prior to a contract negotiation coming to an end to favor their point of view.

Now, looking at your posting, there are some points at the end regarding "normal" earnings that need clarification. Of the reduction in Flight Services earnings at BH, FlightSafety accounts for almost all of it in the year referenced. There is a note that the loss at FlightSafety was offset by improved results at NetJets; a pre-tax loss of $9 million vs. a pre-tax loss of $19 million the year before. What you may not realize however is that it is generally understood that NetJets makes money with their domestic operations and loses money with it's international ops.

Soooo, my guess is that these pilots actually work in a profitable operation and as it says at the end of that 10k, "NetJets continues to be the leader in the fractional ownership field". Wouldn't you want more $$$ if you were the leader???

By the way, I realize that last sentence is just typical management bull$hit. All companies think they're the leader. Except Avis, but that's why they try harder!!!

Mr. I.

 

[rajflyboy]

"Why is the Contract Not Fair?"

Pay really isn't the major issue that will make this contract will go down in flames next week.

It has more to do with work rules than anything else.

1. CVR can be used for disciplinary actions. No No No

2. RCA's in EWR,CMH,ORL,DAL,LAX >> this will seperate the pilot group and possibly destroy the whole gateway system in the future. The RCA folks will get 6000$ more a year to live in an RCA and all new hires have to live at an RCA. another NO NO NO

3. Now the company can work us until 0300 AM on the 8th day of a tour. This makes it an 8 on 6 off schedule >> NO NO NO again.

4. First day show times as late as the departure time of the airline flight >> Another NO NO NO

5. Contract is full of holes. Loopholes the company can get us on.

Its not all about "Show Me Da Money" with this contract. The other issues will make this a big time no vote for the 1900 pilots at Netjets!

 

[CatYaaak]

The NBAA Compensation and Benchmark Survey

Where for example the 90th percentile pay for a 6th year Captain on an aircraft of GW > than 35,000 lbs is $123,585. About 60K more than NJA pay.

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

 

[Majik]

Don't worry, these people would never let the reality of the world enter their perception of how things should be even when confronted with facts. Frankly, while I do not know everyones pay, I suspect that there is not one pilot flying corporate on this airport making over $100k except perhaps the captain that came from SFO. They use a $300 a day co-pilot for their flights.

You want reality? I'm a 5 year captain and I make less than the $300 a day co-pilot you refer to. Still think I am out of touch with reality?

 

[Majik]

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

OK Yaaak, what benchmark do you suggest we use for a comparative baseline?
You say I can't use other fractionals, because they don't use collective bargaining and that their pay is based off of ours.
You say I can't base it off part 91 pilots flying the same type plane as I fly because they don't use collective bargaining to establish their wages.

So who are the other "apples" that identically match NJA pilot's situation and would be acceptable to use for your benchmark?

 

[gunfyter]

I think NJI is underpaid as well... But they LOSE money and make more than NJA pilots... So the SEC filings are irrelevant.

 

[gunfyter]

Erroneously comparing yourself to part 91 corp flight department salaries I see. You do understand that doing so is comparing apples to oranges. Good luck with making a compelling argument using those statistics. You're better off just saying "We want more money".

And I continue to marvel at the irony of you using a benchmark which reflects non-union wages, arrived at through a process completely different from collective bargaining.

I am comparing myself to those who fly the same equipment and do the same job... Only I do it better and more productively. And I am smarter and better looking too. So we apply a correction factor to the 90th percentile in the survey to account for the higher pruductivity and flexibility...

AND...the Answer is

$161,896​

​

​

for an NJA CE-750 Captain in the 6th year. But if I only get the 90th percentile NBAA pay I can live with it.

In the end, The compelling argument to be made is a release to work action. That is the only thing that will make them see sense.

 

[CRAWDADDY]

Why can't we compare ourselves to 91 operators? The company does.

 

[FLYLOW22]

I asked a couple of times how NetJets pay would compare to that of the other fractional providers if the TA was approved. No one answered, but someone did PM me the addy for Airlinepilot.com. The answer is, "About the same as Flight Options, Flex Jet and Citation Shares."

So next I wondered why these NetJet guys thought they should be paid more than other pilots doing the same job. Is it because NetJets is more profitable then the other fractionals?

So I went to the SEC, something we here in DC well know how to do. The following is from Berkshire Hathaway's most recent 10k filing:

I looked at the most recent 10q as well and it supports the above quoted statement from BH's legal mouthpiece, Deloitte and Thouche.

So I guess NetJets isn't wildly profitable either, just bigger.

It doesn't seem right to compare NetJet pay to corporate pilot's salaries because that's not what you do. Your job seems more like charter operations than corporate, but that's not quite right either. It would seem that the most appropriate way to determine if your pay is fair would be to compare it to others that do exactly what you do, the other fractionals.

So why should you guys get paid more than they do?

-SkyGirl-
(anybody know where I can get a flame retartdant suit? )

Don't worry pal. We're figuring it out.

P.S. you sound like NJA management.

 

[Publishers]

problem

You want reality? I'm a 5 year captain and I make less than the $300 a day co-pilot you refer to. Still think I am out of touch with reality?

Well he may not agree-- he has no benefits, only flies when they need him versus another guy, has to do all his own record keeping, most flights he is called for are weekends and holidays. No minimum guarantee, not even a promise of full time.

He has a type in the Challenger, over 1500 in type, and 5000 total

 

[FLYLOW22]

Publisher,


Do you know that you listed your ratings as "SMELI"? Are you done pretending to be a pilot. Go file some paperwork at Easton.

 

[Daveman]

Publisher,


Do you know that you listed your ratings as "SMELI"? Are you done pretending to be a pilot. Go file some paperwork at Easton.

This is the funniest quote I've read on fltightinfo.