Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[Live4flyng]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I'm confused, what do you mean by this?

 

[netjetwife]

Maybe the "different animal" is a reference to their favored /"pet" status as compared to NJA? I doubt that is really what Publishers means, but it seems to be the difference mentioned most by the NJA pilots who are tired of being the "poor cousin" of the BH family.

 

[Publishers]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

 

[Live4flyng]

If I remember right, EJI was a joint venture with Gulfstream and they insisted that things be done a certain way and Netjets agreed.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Is EJM considered the same thing as Netjets? The fact is that if Netjets for some reason bought Airnet tomorrow, it is a different business than what you are in now. Does that mean their pilots out to be under the same deal as yours?

Just as I thought. What exactly is the difference between NJI and NJA? I'm still waiting to hear your version. Now you are asking about EJM. You have some homework to do before coming here and trying to educate the pilots in this business.

There are considerable differences between flying a mostly domestic system and random international flights.

Please explain this one to us too....

 

[Majik]

NJI was and is a different animal.

I think the biggest differences are that EJI is non-union, they lost money every year for the last 3 years, and they are paid much more than NJA unionized pilots.
There goes your theory that you have to be profitable to demand higher salaries. You just have to convince the CEO to rob the unionized folks to pay the non-union folks.

 

[Publishers]

Is or is not this company still a joint deal with Gulfstream???Was it not geared for the Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft? To my best recollection, this was their concept for fractional Gulfstream and BBJ aircraft. Gulfstream insisted that it be separate from Netjets and that the pilot group be separate, partially because they did not want to deal with the kind of stuff we are seeing right now. They wanted the deal based at SAV.

EJM was to offer management services to people who did not want to do the share bit but wanted their aircraft chartered. I have three of these deals on the premises now.

Frankly Majik I do not try and remember all the history of these companies. In the mid eighties, I was in discussions with EJA about an executive position if the company was not sold.

Educating pilots in this business is more of a challenge than I want this late in life. I used to make some of mine study the company financials so they would have a better grasp on how difficult it is. Most figured out they would rather fly the plane.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJW- My brother in law was a corporate pilot (in reference to your NBAA salary comment) I cannot acess this btw. He was not home 11 days a month. And when he was home he still had to go the office from 9-5. They moved to 3 different states with the same company in 6 years. Do your guys have to go in to the office when they are home?

If your benefits are better then Champus they must be outstanding.

Re; Retirement I dont know any cos that offer management retirement plans anymore. 401k with or mostly without match.

When you say managment- do you mean non union employees? Or employees who manage other people? Line employees? Doesnt belonging to a union provide benefits that non union employees do not enjoy? Why belong to one then? if you negotiate on your own, seems like you would have a stronger position individually.

I laughed at your parent/child analogy. (I hope that was appropriate). As if any good business decision can be made with the emotions of a parent or any good parent would make decisions with the objectivity of a business director.

Good luck- thanks for the information.

Ps TO ALL- if these other non union pilots make more money have you thought of looking into negotiating individually and not having a union?

 

[gunfyter]

First, congratulations upon the victory of your candidate and I applauded your enthusiasm and optimistic outlook for the future of our national economy. However, your mutual affinity for republican, conservative politics and organized labor presents an interesting dichotomy. Clearly, you are aware that the fortunes of organized labor are not improved by the dominance of the Republican Party in the White House and the Congress.

Oil falls to five-week low as supply fears ease...
Job Gains Strongest in Seven Months...

337,000 people added to payrolls...


When I made my prediction the Dow was 10,027 NASDAQ was 1942.

A few minutes ago DOW = 10,375 NASDAQ = 2033

GET READY TO ROCKnROLL! W is in charge and the situation is under control!

The mistake in unions supporting liberals is this... Liberals are very concerned with sharing the pie fairly so they tax businesses and the rich such that the pie SHRINKS... Conservatives untax business so that the pie increases for everybody. Thats what will help labor.

Taxes on the Rich and businesses is to the economy what flying with your gear down flaps and slats extended and speedbrakes are to your airspeed. Libs don't get it. Also they social programs they support is PARASITE DRAG on the economy.

 

[AeroBoy]

GF,

Oil prices are not going down due to Bush, they're going down due to easing supply issues (read the f*ing story that you link to). The only way W could be credited with falling oil prices is if he mandated and implemented higher MPG ratings for cars/SUVs, and said cars/SUVs were already in service and therefore using less fuel, reducing demand for oil and thus increasing available supply while lowering prices due to the law of supply and demand.

Likewise, the stock markets are up because A) oil prices are falling due to easing supply (at least for the moment, though oil prices are still high at $45 a barrell) and B) the elections are over, thus ending the uncertainty of who will be running the country for the next 4 years.

Regarding your flawed view on taxes: if the rich or corporations don't pay tax, then the tax revenue has to come from somewhere to keep this country running (and pay for our war in Iraq). So who's left to foot the bill? Us little guys who work hard to make ends meet every month. Or, if we "stay the course" on the Bush tax cuts, then our children and grandchildren will be paying for our free ride. This is the parasite drag you should be worried about. Trickle-down economics didn't work in the 1980s, and it won't work now...or ever. The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order."

Bush in NOT God. Nor do I want God in the White House. Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

 

[Starman]

Aeroboy,

You might want to a little more research on what the Founding Fathers really thought about faith in God and it's place in this country. You've got 4 years to educate yourself.

 

[netjetwife]

FAcFriend, how could our pilots go in to the office? They live scattered across the country. The ones that live nearby wouldn't even have to, considering that many are only AT HOME (as opposed to being away ) for 11 days a month. Here's what the AIN article had to say in their comparison of the two groups.

"But the salt in the wound is that what NetJets calls “industry-leading pilot pay” is barely half of the NBAA-reported salaries for those flying identical equipment in the corporate world. This despite the fact that fractional crews fly much more per month than typical corporate pilots and routinely have 14-hour duty days, in addition to being on the road for longer periods."

I can't access that info either, but I trust the pilots to know what they're talking about. Btw, that journal is usually pretty pro-management, my husband tells me, so their support of the NJ pilots strengths their case I think.

The NJ benefits seem to be in line w/other professional packages. It is the military retirement that has lost ground, so that is not the way to look at it. And the 2 are apples and oranges any way. As far as retirement goes, yes the 401K is what the pilots mention as well.

The parent/child analogy was used to lighten an often bleak subject; nonetheless, the narrow context in which it was used--fairness--is applicable. There ARE problems, legally and ethically, with a company not treating employees that perform the same duties, fairly. I hear the complaint often enough to believe that it will be an issue raised during negotiations.

Union advantage should not be undervalued. In the case of the pilots, undoubtly, there is strength in numbers. If not for the actions, allowed under UNION rules, 117 FOs would have no payraise in the near future. Pressing their case individually was not seen as a possibility to pilots that have to use the union's help to file a grievance when the company breaks the work rules. Furthermore, non-union workers have NO job protection. The lifestyle is so dufficult that job security should not have to be a concern to pilots that give up a lot to perform very demanding jobs for the company. My husband says that you might be able to find 5% of the pilots willing to go it on their own. The problems seen to date, are a result of poor leadership NOT the fact that the pilots are unionized. When reading the boards--pilots and wives--and talking to people, one hears much praise and confidence in the new leaders and in the unity of the pilot force, as a whole. That 82% that voted down the TA were also sending a message to the company regarding their new sense of purpose and determination. This is not just MY impression. It is a statement made over and over by the NJ pilots (and spouses) themselves.

Good luck to you and your family. Thanks for your interest.
Netjetwife

 

[gunfyter]

... Even our founding fathers understood separation of church and state. Bush does not, and that scares me.

Of course you are wrong about everything else you said but I really like that one.

What the founders understood about Church and State was that the STATE is to not interfere with the free exercise of Religion. Bush is right in line with the founders.

Separation of Church and State appears no where in the Constitution. Where does it come from? It comes from Baptist doctrine. Was discussed in letters between Thomas Jefferson and the Danbury Baptists who were worried about the State establishing official religions like in Europe.

Bush understands the church and state... Liberals do not.

"...We hold these truths to be self-evident: That all men are created equal;
that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. That, to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed; that, whenever any form of government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government,... " -- US Declaration

You do not want God in the White House.... However, this is where your rights come from. How will your rights be protected if God is absent? The Founders understood this... so does W.

 

[FAcFriend]

NJw
Quick question? What legal or ehtical problems arise from a company treating employees that perform the same job differently?

As long as it is not discrimination, religiously based, racially based, I do not think there are legal problems with this.

FF

 

[NJAowner]

Rich get richer

Aeroboy -- not getting into politics here but you say:

The rich will just get richer, while the poor get poorer. Welcome to the "new world order.

I find this a strange comment froma fractional/corporate pilot. It the "rich" have less, more of them will fly commercial, therefore the economy will need fewer corporate/fractional/charter pilots.

Then you go to work at Home Depot?


Be careful what you wish for.

Fly safe.

 

[rajflyboy]

Again I must say that this Contract is not all about Money.

Its about quality of life and also...... its about where you may or may not be able to live in the Future. Its about getting rid of harassment issues like the CVR Reviewing.

RCA's >> No way
CVR Reviewing >> No Way
3 am on the 8th day >> No way
show go with an airline on the first day >> No way
Signing Bonus should be pro rated by the Month

list goes on and on and on and on


When this stuff is fixed....Then We can talk about Money!!