Why is NetJets TA Unfair?

[kingtut]

gunfyter, thanks for the response. Eloquent as always.

I've been around the patch a few times in 55 years of life and I have seen some really stupid stuff and not just in aviation. Fact is, there ain't no tellin' what the company clowns will put forth as a reasonable offer.

Guess the real question is, what is the forecast wait for another pass at a TA / Contract?

On a philosophical note, "It is easier to be the hero than the administrator." We will see just how long those of the SU running for MEC remain heros. In reality, I think they will go from hero to A-hole in zero point nothing seconds.

 

[Texasskicker]

Former lurker posting his 2 bits worth

Im all for the fight y'all are wagin' for your wages.

Can't help but say this. If you are unhappy with your job, what yer being paid for what you do, and the job conditions... why not look elsewhere in the industry for a better job?

Airjobs digest has a bunch of jobs posted for corporate pilots, and I gar-own-darn-tee you they pay WAY better than what the FO's are makin' right now at Net jets.

Why not lift yourself up and look out there to see what alternatives are available?

I know y'all have already thought of this and are prolly holdin' on to get a better package. But think of all the lost earnings that go by for every day you don't have that better payin job.

Anyway, good luck in your "war on terrible pay."

 

[gunfyter]

Tut,

If the company wants a new contract to pass... it won't be worse than the one that just failed by 82% to 17%. If they offer less we know they are not interested in a new CBA... and they are happy with what we have now.

 

[NJAFracPilot]

How do you know how much money the company lost? Mr Bill says we didn't lose money.

The 310 million dollar NetJet loss is in the current Berkshire Hathaway Securities and Exchange Commision filing. Anyway, every day that goes by, we're losing money. It would have made a He!! of a lot more sense to take the TA and the money and start working on a new TA. We're in the same position right now - working on a new TA - except we didn't get the raise and the signing bonus.

 

[kingtut]

gunfyter, you are certainly correct, "they [sic:Company] are happy with what we have now." The company has not been and will not be in a hurry to change anything that is currently in force. Fact is, everyday spent under the current contract is good from the point of view of the company clowns. There are some things the company will change just because they can will out pilot group approval: Standby For Heavy Rolls. (Man, do I love that nautical talk stuff.)

As I said, time will tell.

 

[El Chupacabra]

$310 million? We know that money was not lost paying Pilots.

If we all worked for FREE (as in a salary of ZERO) that means losses still would have been nearly $200 million.

If there is a problem it has nothing to do with pilot pay.

 

[LR45JI]

The 310 million dollar NetJet loss is in the current Berkshire Hathaway Securities and Exchange Commision filing. Anyway, every day that goes by, we're losing money. It would have made a He!! of a lot more sense to take the TA and the money and start working on a new TA. We're in the same position right now - working on a new TA - except we didn't get the raise and the signing bonus.

Please show me where in the SEC filling you see a $310 Million loss in the latest SEC filling.

I will make it easy for you....this is from the BH 10Q SEC filling:

Revenues from aircraft sales and flight operations in 2004 increased $97 million (21.0%) for the second quarter and $279 million (32.0%) for the first six months.

Pre-tax earnings of the flight services segment for the first half of 2004 totaled $66 million compared to pre-tax earnings of $25 million for the first half of 2003. For the first half of 2004, pre-tax earnings from training activities as well as aircraft sales and flight operations increased over the first half of 2003. Pre-tax earnings from training increased $23 million for the first half of 2004 over 2003 due to the aforementioned revenue increases and from relatively small increases in certain fixed operating costs, including salaries and depreciation. The pre-tax results of the aircraft sales and flight operations business improved by about $18 million during the first half of 2004. The improvement was primarily due to an increase in aircraft sales and an increase in the volume and efficiency of flight operations.​

Please show me where it says what you are claiming. I enjoy being proven wrong as I learn something from it - PLEASE prove me wrong; I will even give you the link to the SEC http://www.sec.gov​

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Please show me where in the SEC filling you see a $310 Million loss in the latest SEC filling.

I will make it easy for you....this is from the BH 10Q SEC filling...

Please show me where it says what you are claiming. I enjoy being proven wrong as I learn something from it - PLEASE prove me wrong; I will even give you the link to the SEC http://www.sec.gov​

Sure, go to the same site or to Hoover or Edgar-Online and look at Berskshire Hathaway's last 10K filling.

 

[LR45JI]

Here ya go, straight from the BH 10K, page 28, ending 12-31-03 which is the latest 10K.

Flight services

This segment includes FlightSafety, a leading provider of high technology training to operators of aircraft and ships and NetJets, the world’s leading provider of fractional ownership programs for general aviation aircraft. FlightSafety’s worldwide clients include corporations, regional airlines, the military and government agencies. The decline in revenues was split between FlightSafety (about $96 million) and NetJets (about $310 million). A decline in FlightSafety training revenues accounted for most of that businesses revenue decline. The decline in training revenues was due to a decline in regional airline training somewhat offset by increased U.S. Government training revenues. The decline in revenues at NetJets was due to a reduction of revenues from sales of aircraft of $514 million partially offset by increased flight services and other revenues of about $204 million. Pre-tax earnings from these businesses was $72 million in 2003 as compared to $225 million in 2002. The results for 2002 include a gain of $60 million from the sale of a partnership interest to Boeing and the results for 2003 include the recognition of pre-tax charges of $69 million related to write downs of certain simulators and aircraft inventory. Excluding the aforementioned gain and write downs, “normal earnings” from these businesses were $141 million in 2003 versus $165 million in 2002. The reduction in combined “normal” pre-tax earnings from these businesses is due to reduced “normal” pre-tax earnings at FlightSafety of $34 million somewhat offset by improved results at NetJets where its pre-tax loss before write downs was $9 million in 2003 versus about $19 million in 2002. The corporate aviation business has slowed significantly in the past few years which has hurt FlightSafety’s results. NetJets continues to be the leader in the fractional ownership field.​

I will let someone else educate you on the difference between Revenue vs. P/L. ​

 

[NJAFracPilot]

Good, glad to see you found it. Your post was being edited faster than I could read it.

The important thing is that we could have the $25,000 signing bonus and the pay raise in our pockets while we negotiate the new TA. The fact is that we don't.

 

[FAcFriend]

ok, NJW I am trying to follow your logic thanks for following mine.

Computer Cos Laid off programmers, causing glut in market, driving everyone's salary down. I thought that was happening with pilots, supply and demand. Too many pilots, too few jobs.

A computer programmer that made 150K at World Com gets paid 50K at Net Jet. Should he be paid 150 because that is what he used to make? Because others may make that at another company? Or should he be paid 50k because there are three other people who can do the job and want the job for 50k?

If 1000 pilots took the job for 29k over the past four years, there must be something they liked, pay, benefits, location, the secretary
How does supply and demand of pilots fit in here?

I have other comments and quesitons but dont want to take up too much space. Thanks
Bet your kids were cute for Halloween.

 

[LR45JI]

The important thing is that we could have the $25,000 signing bonus and the pay raise in our pockets while we negotiate the new TA. The fact is that we don't.

Your obviouselly senior if you were getting the 25K, maiking up less than 10% of the seniority list.

The important thing is that the horriable language (CVR, A & B Scale pay per RCA) were not accepted and are now "Off the table".

 

[El Chupacabra]

A $310 Million loss in the SEC filing. Any more false claims out there.

"The decline in revenues at NetJets was due to a reduction of revenues from sales of aircraft of $514 million partially offset by increased flight services and other revenues of about $204 million"

Revenues from FLIGHT SERVICES (thats us) INCREASED!

 

[njwingman]

If you don't want to believe the SEC filings, go back and watch Boisture's DVD. In it he indicates that NetJets' net profits have been running the 5% range, which is not up to Berkshire's desires, but profits nonetheless, not losses. Straight from the honcho's mouth.

 

[Live4flyng]

Hey Ding Dong

[QUOTE
Good, glad to see you found it. Your post was being edited faster than I could read it. The important thing is that we could have the $25,000 signing bonus and the pay raise in our pockets while we negotiate the new TA. The fact is that we don't.[/QUOTE]

If you are so concerned about the health and profitability of Netjets, volunteer to work for free. None of us (82%) would mind while we fight for a descent contract. As El Chupacabra pointed out using your numbers, the company would still show a loss if everyone worked for free. NJA pilots are the lowest paid of all of NETJETS, INCs. subsidiaries. I don't hear you jumping up and down about that. For Chrite Pete, have a little self worth for once. Ask our CEO and President if they are willing to take a pay cut to subsidize our failing company. You have alot to learn about business, thank GOD guys like you aren't in leadership positions!

 

[netjetwife]

My 2 bits worth--ladies first...

FAcFriend, the 1000 pilots that took the job in the last 4 years had been upgrading quickly to PIC, so while not paid what they should be, still weren't making 28K very long. Getting stuck on FO pay is something that happened in the last 2 yrs or so. Yes there is something they like--the type of flying they do--constant change, more responsibility for decisions, etc. And don't forget that the contract had been under negotiation already for the majority of those hired during that time. Who'd ever have thought that it'd take 3 yrs to get a TA!! The new hires were told by other pilots that they'd get an "industry leading contract" and heard repeated promises of "kick-ass" pay. Just because the last MEC failed miserably doesn't mean that fair pay isn't possible. It just means that the pilots need to have leadership that truly cares about them and their families and is willing to work hard for them (more about that later). As far as your computer programer analogy goes, I respectfully suggest that it's far too broad to be useful. In all skilled labor there are levels of talent and experience that come into play. With the face-to-face interaction between the pilots and wealthy/famous owners seen at NJA, it's also reasonable to assume that people skills are a consideration as well. Being a good pilot is not a guarantee of having diplomacy and a welcoming attitude. Others before you, have mentioned an over supply of pilots, but NJ is known for hiring only the best; if they lower their standards that reputation could surely suffer. Furthermore, pilots have been refusing the job because the pay is too low and the (now defeated )TA was bad. My husband's F16 friend is now in training at AirTran for better pay. We are seeing another rule of economics at play here: Companies that are unwilling to pay for the level of skill/experience they desire must either lower their standards or raise wages. Don't you think the owners will complain if they are given beer after paying for champaign? With accidents recently in the news, I believe safety/experience will continue to be a high priority for them.

Texasasskicker, I'd bet that many NJ pilots do have a backup plan, but they like the job and think their cause is worth fighting for. As I've tried to point out before, balance is an important goal. My husband, and other NJ pilots, enjoy the flying and px interaction. They want to have a contract that allows them to stay at a job they like. That said, thanks for your show of support! It helps.

Kingtut, what "reality" is your low opinion ("they will go from hero to A-hole...") of the SU leaders based on? My high opinion of them is based on my own personal exchanges with some of them, my husbands' teleconferences w/all of them, and evidence of their strong determination, to help the pilots, which we have seen already. When you add to those facts, the REALITY that we have had FAR MORE communication from SU in the past 3 months than we had from the last MEC in 3 years, it makes your opinion appear harsh and hasty, not to mention, unfounded.

NJAFrac pilot--where do I begin?? Obviously your use of "WE" could have had a $25K signing bonus applies to a small minority. My husband was only offered $5K (after 21 months w/NJ) and that is the same that a brand new hire would have received. How is that fair?? You only mentioned pay (clearly yours is far higher than others) but the TA was terribly flawed in all areas. The yes voters were agreeing to a list of regressions that 82 % deemed unacceptable. Additionally, the weak scope clause would have placed many jobs at risk. Apparently--not yours. It seems to me, you fail to recognize that the basic premise of a union is to get the most possible for the most members. One would think that if the FO/FOs can hang on for a better contract, while making less than $30K a year, then surely your family can as well. Do we think the MEC turned stupid over night? LOL...don't ask! Seriously, I think they were in over their heads but were too arrogant to admit it. SU, on the other hand, is more than willing to obtain the service of experts and make use of the talent/experience offered by other pilots. NJW

 

[El Chupacabra]

Live, I think you have NJWingman confused with someone else

 

[Live4flyng]

Live, I think you have NJWingman confused with someone else

Thanks, I edited it. Quoted the wrong person.

 

[Sctt@NJA]

The 310 million dollar NetJet loss ...

If you can't tell the difference between a decline in revenue and a loss ...

 

[NJAFracPilot]

If you can't tell the difference between a decline in revenue and a loss ...

Okay, I screwed the pooch reading the MD&A on the 10k, there was a decline of revenue of 310 million and a loss of only 9 million. But the point is, I have an investment of time in this company and look at it as a career, not a stop on the way to somewhere else. I want equitable pay for us, but I also want the company to be around to pay us. We could get paid and still work toward improving our next contract had we accepted the TA.

We'll just have to see what SU has to say after they've been shown the secret handshake and hope that it doesn't take too long to get another TA on the table.