When can AirTran dump ALPA?

[PCL_128]

A member in good standing conducted a Book Review and an Internal Audit Committee looked at SWAPA comp time. There has been a lot of chatter about these reviews on the SWAPA forum. The 2nd VP is ultimately responsible for ensuring the membership is getting good value for the buck as far as comp time goes. A highly comped Committee Chair and Domicile rep have publicly explained their actions. SWAPA dues are relatively cheap, and the union is operating in the black...it's hard to differentiate between the valid use of comp time and abuse because the specific records are closely held by SWAPA. More transparency would help, and I expect that to be the result...

I'm would not be surprised that the Domicile Reps you speak of are from Eastern bases that have seen a lot of displacements due to base openings (and no organic growth) and the arrival of FAT that are now senior FOs at SWA...

If a rep needs "comp time," he should be bought off of his trips, not accumulate additional credit. Allowing reps to submit for additional credit is a system that is ripe for abuse. No one should be profiting from union work.

 

[Critter717]

Until all DRC claims are heard, and all remedies accepted by management (and if not accepted, arbitrated at the second-stage arbitration), then you'd have to be a complete moron to want to get rid of our own representation.

PCL, what is the best case result of the DRC claims for the Airtran pilot group? Specifics please.

 

[madjack]

PCL, that is a very broad brush comment, the Rule for union compensation is no loss or gain...the committee chair had over 1000 trips comped, the domicile rep is being criticized for "excessive" lounge visits...both have explained themselves...the issue is a hot topic on the forum...a counter argument is that if SWAPA pays so well why are there uncontested domicile rep races...people aren't tripping themselves to get on the gravy train...wonder why?

 

[redflyer65]

Unbelievable. Your beloved SWAPA has reps regularly pulling in 160+ TFP months because of their union work, and you want to criticize ALPA, where the union prohibits volunteers from making extra money from union work?

SWAPA is corrupt. And the BOD reducing the cap on extra TFPs from union work to 60 should be considered a slap in the face to all SWAPA members. Rise up and demand that your volunteers stop profiting off of their fellow pilots.

PCL,

You are laughable and making a fool of yourself by trying to defend ALPA's actions.

SWAPA corrupt? Again, laughable. I routinely make 120tfp every month. Some regular line guys make 180. So do you really believe 160 is not worth it? Your showing your lack of knowledge here.

We pay half the rate that you would at ALPA, work under a better overall contract, have better services (top 401k options among ALL US companies), and have 17 million in a reserve fund. We most likely will REDUCE dues or offer a dues holiday in the future. All at the same time ALPA is charging 3 thousand dollar dinners to members and taking their 2% dues off all income..including what you make in your 401k income. I thought that was a pretty low blow, especially for Regional FOs that aren't making anything to begin with.

The differences are stark, but nice ALPA spin. Most Airtran guys can't wait to shed their connection with ALPA, and I don't blame them.

PS...completely agree with Kharma.

 

[freightdogfred]

Yet they pay half as much in union dues? At least the SWAPA guys know where their money goes. I would rather it go to pilots working for me than hired hands who are milking us dry. Like the useless writers for the magazine and overpriced staff.

Yea but the SWAPA union dudes don't have really cool moustaches like our guys. Go to a big union powow in Hearndon and see for yourself.
If you don't have a cool moustache, one will be supplied to you at the door.

 

[PCL_128]

PCL, what is the best case result of the DRC claims for the Airtran pilot group? Specifics please.

That's impossible to answer, since the arbitrator can issue whatever remedy he chooses.

 

[PCL_128]

a counter argument is that if SWAPA pays so well why are there uncontested domicile rep races...people aren't tripping themselves to get on the gravy train...wonder why?

Probably because the average line pilot isn't aware of how lucrative SWAPA work is. When a resolution has to be ratified to reduce comp pay to 60 TFPs, something is seriously wrong.

 

[atldc9]

(top 401k options among ALL US companies)
.

Complete thread creep...

Just a quick thought on this...one of the major factors that was used in the study that everyone talks about was participation rate and contribution amounts. Since we pilots have our own 401k plan, and nearly all pilots contribute at least 10% in order to get the company match, this artificially drives that factor of the study way up in the comparisons. I'm not saying it isn't a decent plan, but it's not god's gift to retirement accounts that some would make it out to be.

 

[HowardBorden]

Yea but the SWAPA union dudes don't have really cool moustaches like our guys. Go to a big union powow in Hearndon and see for yourself.
If you don't have a cool moustache, one will be supplied to you at the door.

Steve Chase had a pretty cool mustache.....just sayin'.

 

[canyonblue]

If you don't have a cool moustache, one will be supplied to you at the door.

Moustaches are for Motorcycle Cops and the Village People.

 

[FlyinGuy]

My guess it that ALPA will stay on AT property until the DRC is completed. If I understand the DRC paperwork properly, it will be SWAPA going to SWA if there is a ruling in favor of AT. That should be interesting. As far as remedies, there are a number of possibilities. One thing that is not possible is a reshuffle of the list.

 

[tomgoodman]

Moustaches are for Motorcycle Cops and the Village People.

Hey, what about us?

http://www.buzzpatrol.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/walrus.jpg

 

[Dan Roman]

Complete thread creep...

Just a quick thought on this...one of the major factors that was used in the study that everyone talks about was participation rate and contribution amounts. Since we pilots have our own 401k plan, and nearly all pilots contribute at least 10% in order to get the company match, this artificially drives that factor of the study way up in the comparisons. I'm not saying it isn't a decent plan, but it's not god's gift to retirement accounts that some would make it out to be.

This is a good point. Most ALPA legacies actually have a higher contribution percentage than SWA's. Our DC is 15% from day one and does not require pilot input for any matching, it's 15% no matter what the pilot puts in. Red, you are buying hook line and sinker into your propaganda piece about how wonderful your 401k is, but that masks the fact that the company contributes less to your plan than other carriers do.

 

[jonjuan]

Moustaches are for Motorcycle Cops and the Village People.

And Magnum PI

 

[madjack]

"it's 15% no matter what the pilot puts in"

I wish we had that at SWA!

 

[redflyer65]

This is a good point. Most ALPA legacies actually have a higher contribution percentage than SWA's. Our DC is 15% from day one and does not require pilot input for any matching, it's 15% no matter what the pilot puts in. Red, you are buying hook line and sinker into your propaganda piece about how wonderful your 401k is, but that masks the fact that the company contributes less to your plan than other carriers do.

Thanks for your post Dan. I have no delusions that SWAPA is perfect. Do we need a better match? Absolutely. There are areas and things that need to be perfected. I agree.

But the product that the SWAPA 401k committee (not SW the company) has put together is better than not only other airlines, but up there with choices from all the largest US companies.

It's a combination of high participation rate (as stated earlier) and outstanding choices on WHERE to invest our monies. Our in-house 401k committee vets each mutual fund frequently. There are many that want to get on the list yearly...but don't make it. We have in-house aged based choices...then on top of that we have the ability to trade in the open market with pretty much any ETF, Stock and/or outside mutual funds. This overall flexibility is far and beyond what most companies allow their employees to invest in. See the big picture now Dan? And yes, I credit our union with knocking this out of the park. If you think that's 'hook line and sinker' then you're entitled to your opinion.

 

[Dan Roman]

Thanks for your post Dan. I have no delusions that SWAPA is perfect. Do we need a better match? Absolutely. There are areas and things that need to be perfected. I agree.

But the product that the SWAPA 401k committee (not SW the company) has put together is better than not only other airlines, but up there with choices from all the largest US companies.

It's a combination of high participation rate (as stated earlier) and outstanding choices on WHERE to invest our monies. Our in-house 401k committee vets each mutual fund frequently. There are many that want to get on the list yearly...but don't make it. We have in-house aged based choices...then on top of that we have the ability to trade in the open market with pretty much any ETF, Stock and/or outside mutual funds. This overall flexibility is far and beyond what most companies allow their employees to invest in. See the big picture now Dan? And yes, I credit our union with knocking this out of the park. If you think that's 'hook line and sinker' then you're entitled to your opinion.

Well, you can certainly make the case that giving pilots too many choices is an invitation for lower returns!
I'm not attacking you dude, just pointing out the fact that SWA lags in retirement benefits.

 

[redflyer65]

Well, you can certainly make the case that giving pilots too many choices is an invitation for lower returns!
I'm not attacking you dude, just pointing out the fact that SWA lags in retirement benefits.

No worries Dan. I agree we need to raise our match, the other stuff is above par.

PS- I've worked at companies that gave you five mutual funds to chose from...five. No other option. More options are better.

 

[dalad]

Thanks for your post Dan. I have no delusions that SWAPA is perfect. Do we need a better match? Absolutely. There are areas and things that need to be perfected. I agree.

But the product that the SWAPA 401k committee (not SW the company) has put together is better than not only other airlines, but up there with choices from all the largest US companies.

It's a combination of high participation rate (as stated earlier) and outstanding choices on WHERE to invest our monies. Our in-house 401k committee vets each mutual fund frequently. There are many that want to get on the list yearly...but don't make it. We have in-house aged based choices...then on top of that we have the ability to trade in the open market with pretty much any ETF, Stock and/or outside mutual funds. This overall flexibility is far and beyond what most companies allow their employees to invest in. See the big picture now Dan? And yes, I credit our union with knocking this out of the park. If you think that's 'hook line and sinker' then you're entitled to your opinion.

We have our own ability to invest as we want at DAL with a Brokerage link option. I trade the VIX futures through my company account, short UVXY and long SVXY. Pull up a 2 year chart on UVXY and see why it's a shorts dream. It has helped me grow my DC plan from just pver 150k to well over 600k today. I buy the puts on it whenever it spikes.

 

[burg]

Our pilots are grossly uninformed as to b-funds..

And swapa has not tried to fix it.

Including a b-fund the total
compensation package raise has to be a 21% or we are
Screwd,,,,

 

[PCL_128]

No worries Dan. I agree we need to raise our match, the other stuff is above par.

You still aren't getting it. A match, no matter how high, is still subpar. You need a B-Fund or a non-elective contribution (NEC). You shouldn't have to contribute a dime to get at least the first 12% or so.

 

[dicko]

A match, no matter how high, is still subpar. You need a B-Fund or a non-elective contribution (NEC). You shouldn't have to contribute a dime to get at least the first 12% or so.

Red,

Despite the ongoing SWAPA vs ALPA acrimony, this is one item that we should agree on. PCL is correct; This is a plan that helps everybody. Especially those that find it difficult to contribute to their traditional 401K. For whatever reason.

It has some of the advantages of the old pension schemes, without the vulnerability of the company taking it from you a year before you retire.

 

[redflyer65]

Guys, I completely agree with both of you. B fund is the way to go.

I'm using a generic term 'match', so maybe I should have been more clear.

Did Airtran have any profit sharing dynamic? We've been getting around 3.5% lately, so that helps. But then its not contractual. So the B fund is definitly needed.

 

[PCL_128]

No, we didn't have a profit sharing plan. Personally, I'm not a fan of them. My compensation should not in any way be based upon the whims of managers manipulating numbers for tax purposes.

 

[madjack]

Why did AAI/ALPA lawyers think the DRA venue is better than filing a grievance or federal lawsuit directly against SWA (vs the DRC against SWAPA)?

 

[GhettoBeechjet]

Because it's easier faster and cheaper to try the DRC first. I predict if the AAI pilots don't get a huge win out of the DRC arbitrations that Federal court is the next step. This won't be over for years but that's not the important thing. The important thing is the ALPA lawyers and guys like PCL will continue to get paid.

 

[PCL_128]

Why did AAI/ALPA lawyers think the DRA venue is better than filing a grievance or federal lawsuit directly against SWA (vs the DRC against SWAPA)?

You can't file a grievance or a federal lawsuit when there's an agreement on an alternative process (the DRA). If you go to federal court, the judge will remand the case back to the DRC. Same if you try to go to an arbitrator through the grievance process. So filing a grievance or a lawsuit would just be a waste of time.

 

[jonjuan]

No worries Dan. I agree we need to raise our match, the other stuff is above par.

PS- I've worked at companies that gave you five mutual funds to chose from...five. No other option. More options are better.

No airline has just 5 mutual funds from which to choose. Not a one. The min is probably 35. Oh, and many allow you trade/gamble in stock as well. Not much difference.

 

[PCL_128]

Most studies have shown that limiting choices is actually better for the overwhelming majority of employees, and yields higher investment returns over time.

Not that I'm in favor of restricting options, but there is a solid argument to be made for it.

 

[SWA Bubba]

. . . . . When you can snatch the membership card from their hand, Grasshopper.

Seriously, until we are wearing SWA ID's and are flying purple planes, we need the representation we have.

If you want to get your money's worth, volunteer to serve on a couple of committees.

Yet more ALPA propaganda... Stop believing everything your union tells you, Ty.

They're blurple, not purple. Geez, get it right, willya'?

Bubba