What's up at Gemini?

[fokkers&beer]

Wow, that was pretty quick. I wonder how many guys will show up to work in the next couple of months only to be shut out of hotels, and not have airfare back home.
I guess the writing was on the wall when I was there, I just didn't want to admit it. My sympathies for all the crews, and hopefully Stockbridge, or someone with a vision steps up and picks up the company and makes something out of it again.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Here's my heartburn. On midnight of Aug 11th, IF some knight in shining armor comes along, then the GAC pilots would no doubt DEMAND DOH or some or other ridiculous integration formula. Most people would say the GAC pilots ought to simply count their lucky stars at being stapled to ANY seniority list... seeing how they were just hours from filing for UNEMPLOYMENT benefits.

Here's MY heartburn.... Why in the hell do you care what the GAC pilots would "demand" if'n they DID get bought? Who cares what "most people" think? If you don't have a dog in this fight, I fail to understand why you're so concerned with what the GAC pilots will try to salvage in the unlikely event that a merger comes along to save their bacon.

 

[Big Beer Belly]

Here's MY heartburn.... Why in the hell do you care what the GAC pilots would "demand" if'n they DID get bought?

Wow IPF... have a beer and relax. You're wrapped pretty tight.

Why am I "interested"? It could potentially negatively effect my/many of my friends' careers depending on who that knight in shining armor is and whether it's a staple or integration.

ex. Some Astar/ABX guys thought UPS had an obligation to hire them when DHL switched subcontractors.

BBB

 

[Fly Astar Jets]

ex. Some Astar/ABX guys thought UPS had an obligation to hire them when DHL switched subcontractors.

BBB

I don't recall ONE AStar/ABXA pilot demanding to be hired by UPS. What was HOPED for was a "preferential interview" process. I understand that Capt. Miller said the leadership of the IPA would request this of UPS management, but I have not heard if this actually happened.

If Any of our guys/gals think they deserve to be hired directly by UPS, they are dead wrong. I do think that a "preferential interview" shouldn't cause any heartburn for UPS pilots though. Unfortunately, It looks like I'm sadly idealistic.

FAJ

 

[Big Beer Belly]

I do think that a "preferential interview" shouldn't cause any heartburn for UPS pilots though. Unfortunately, It looks like I'm sadly idealistic.

FAJ

I'm very sympathetic to the plight of current ABX/Astar pilots. Recently, some have brought forth interesting points of view I had not previously considered. As an example:

Some have questioned why an Astar pilot should receive a "preferential interview" over say an ex-military guy w/ combat time who's slugging it out at Home Depot till the industry turns around?

Both candidates are deserving of consideration. Is one MORE deserving of a "preferential interview"? I'm not so sure any longer????

BBB

 

[HA25]

No disrespect intended to the Gemini guys, but this just illustrates a point. GAC is in Ch 11 for the second time in two years. On Aug 12th, barring some miracle, all GAC pilots are on the street. We agree so far (though again I express my sympathy for the GAC pilots' position.)

Here's my heartburn. On midnight of Aug 11th, IF some knight in shining armor comes along, then the GAC pilots would no doubt DEMAND DOH or some or other ridiculous integration formula. Most people would say the GAC pilots ought to simply count their lucky stars at being stapled to ANY seniority list... seeing how they were just hours from filing for UNEMPLOYMENT benefits.

I don't see how this hypothetical situation is materially different from the TWA/AA situation? But, boy do those ex-TWA guys
feel like the got the "shaft"! I don't get "it"?

BBB

This is the problem with our system today though.. in reality, why should a 12 year MD11 CA come in junior to a new hire FO of what ever company is the buying entity? We as pilots need to get away from this "I'm better than you because my company is managed better"... I think it would go a long way in making this profession better if we all accepted that what's on someone resume should be worth more than starting over at the bottom!

With that said, I recall when Skybus was in BK and they put up the company, the certificate and the 65 orders (sweet deal too) for auction.. they didn't get enough to satisfy the BK judge and they liquidated.. the only think GAC has going for it is a strong MD11 business.... if they can sell that part of it and save some jobs it will be a good thing for those lucky, but in the end good people are going to lose jobs and in this job market, THAT SUCKS!

My prayers are with you guys Fog..

 

[CaptSeth]

There will be no merger, so don't worry about that. Worry about Matlin Patterson Global Opportunies Partners II, the vulture fund that raped and pillaged ATA, saddled it with the debt from purchasing WLDA, and torched it.

I believe they are in the process of closing on Arrow Air, and a company like Gemini fits right into their M.O. They are eager to resurrect their South American interests, since their Variglog deal turned to sh!t and they had to run around S.A. repo'ing airplanes this winter.

Good luck, you're going to need it.

 

[inline]

I'm very sympathetic to the plight of current ABX/Astar pilots. Recently, some have brought forth interesting points of view I had not previously considered. As an example:

Some have questioned why an Astar pilot should receive a "preferential interview" over say an ex-military guy w/ combat time who's slugging it out at Home Depot till the industry turns around?

Both candidates are deserving of consideration. Is one MORE deserving of a "preferential interview"? I'm not so sure any longer????

BBB

Military guys get nearly all the flying jobs at FedEx. Are you also concerned with the civilian pilots with several thousand of jet and turpoprop hours not even getting a reply from FedEx?

 

[metrodriver]

BBB: What makes this ex-military guy so special? The fact that he was flying over hostile terratory in a plane equipped with countermeasures? If that's the case, Gemini pilots should be on the top of the to-be-hired-list of every flight department. If you haven't read the news over the last year, Gemini was the first US air carrier to operate into Baghram, Afghanistan and Baghdad, Iraq. CIVILIANS flying into a known war zone with a huge aircraft without any defense against anything thrown or shot at it. After they proved it could be done somewhat safely other carriers started to do the same.

 

[I.P. Freley]

Wow IPF... have a beer and relax. You're wrapped pretty tight.

I'M wrapped tight? You are getting heartburn about the potential "demands" of a pilot group that you have no involvement with, and I'm the one who needs to relax?

Get over yourself.

 

[Rook]

Sad times all around. I have never been around a finer pilot group than those at GAC. To my mentors (you know who you guys are), good luck and if and when I can ever help please call me.
Rook

 

[Flyguyz69]

So today I find out Gemini isn't paying any of us they terminated 2 days before the bankruptcy court allowed them into chapter 11. The reply was you have to get a lawyer to deal with it, we cant do anything about it. Im glad I put in 11months with such a scumbag operator for nothing and the chief pilot tells me well this is only temp. we will be calling all of you md11 guys back in late Aug-sept. I cant wait for that call so i can tell them where to shove it

 

[kamikaize]

Atleast you got a call from Matt. I didn't know about it until today. Hopefully Gemini will get through this and the guys get their jobs back. Thanks for the higher seniority number

AB

 

[fr8hawler]

I have heard a rumor on the street that as many as 2 and up to 4 of the Gemini MD-11s will be going to World Airways. Anyone else heard as much?

 

[MD11Drvr]

There will be no merger, so don't worry about that. Worry about Matlin Patterson Global Opportunies Partners II, the vulture fund that raped and pillaged ATA, saddled it with the debt from purchasing WLDA, and torched it.

I believe they are in the process of closing on Arrow Air, and a company like Gemini fits right into their M.O. They are eager to resurrect their South American interests, since their Variglog deal turned to sh!t and they had to run around S.A. repo'ing airplanes this winter.

Good luck, you're going to need it.

Capt Seth,

With all due respect how do you figure ATA was saddled with debt to buy World and NAA. ATA was losing money when MP bought it and never turned it around. Now WLDA and NAA are stuck with the debt to service that MP has put into the venture of buying all 3 carriers. World was making money and continues to make money and had 50+ million in the bank when it was bought. The only reason WLDA was sold was our idiots got us delisted buying NAA because thier accounting practices would not meet Sarbanes Oxley standard. The only way for those idiots to line thier pocket was find an investor with enough capitol to take it private. It worked and they walked with millions in thier pocket. As far as I see it ATA could not have been saddled with the debt anymore than another carrier. The debt still exists so if it was ATA's only to carry it would have gone away in BK but it has not. The way I see it MP bought ATA hoping to turn it around, could not and cut the losses, without MP's money ATA would have folded quicker. It surely sucks what happened but I have heard too many folks try and lay the blame at WOA or NAA feet for the demise of ATA because of some supposed debt they were saddled with. The demise of ATA started well before MP or GAL existed. I believe we have a common concern with MP and GAL but it has been interesting to hear the differences of how the events played out from each side of the fence.

You're right good luck to us all!

 

[CaptSeth]

I disagree, regarding the debt and I may add all significant operational support effectively ended when the GAL transaction closed. M-P picked the operation with the highest labor costs, and deliberately tanked it.

World and NAA - if they are profitable now - are only so because of the HUGE windfall of business they recieved as a result of the lion's share of the AMC flying being re-directed to those properties. They'll look like hero's when they launch the IPO - at the expense of 2,500 ATA employees and their families.

How are our former DC-10's working out for you, by the way?

 

[MD11Drvr]

I disagree, regarding the debt and I may add all significant operational support effectively ended when the GAL transaction closed. M-P picked the operation with the highest labor costs, and deliberately tanked it.

World and NAA - if they are profitable now - are only so because of the HUGE windfall of business they recieved as a result of the lion's share of the AMC flying being re-directed to those properties. They'll look like hero's when they launch the IPO - at the expense of 2,500 ATA employees and their families.

How are our former DC-10's working out for you, by the way?

Where was the big difference in labor costs i.e. was it pilots/FA's/MX etc. The way I figured WOA's F/A's are making much more than either other groups and have a more resrictive contract in many ways. ATA's wide body was close but you had less than half of the pilot group on wide body pay as thier were mostly 737 and 757 crews. WOA is 430 at wide body rates and for Capt's is the same rate there is not a graduating scale. WOA has approx. 160 Capts on wide body pay for 20 +/- acft at the time of ATA's demise.

World was making money before GAL and still is that has not been a problem in the current DOD demands as for NAA not as far I have heard.

The DC-10's are a challenge but we have the advantage of 35+ years operating them and we did not suffer big losses of our best MX's like ATA did. When Fedex dropped ATA for performance issues it was too bad as the stars lined up against ATA. The way I see it the heavy checks were being done at SAT and they are hacks at best. ATA did not have the money to spend or the right facility add the wrong decision to do AMC instead of working out the kinks for a year did not help. The best MX's had left for greener pastures and ATA was using contract MX too heavily. Your MEL was pretty restrictive from what I had heard maybe poorly written. It took much longer to get the DC-10's on the program than forecast and MP lost patience which is why 3 were shuffled to WOA. I am glad to see more airframes but was not happy with the source. I have nothing but respect for ATA's crews got knee walking more than once with them and felt they were screwed. I do not however buy off on the notion WOA or NAA shares any of the blame and the debt is still there to MP and WOA will carry the lion share since we are making money. Last I heard NAA is not still and one thing for sure its tough to get reliable intel as much BS flies around and you have to sift through it all to make sense.

One last thing while we did pick up some flying we were pretty close to maxxxed out before but since ATA's demise NWA and United are regulars in KWI. In fact NWA got a 200 out of the desert just to pick up AMC and had it ready to go soon after ATA was gone. Maybe a little prior planning on thier part to partake of the Gov't cheese.

Take care and I have enjoyed the respectful exchange as I am concerned about the events that have unfolded and the ones to come. Brace,Brace, Brace comes to mind.

Take care and good luck! MD11Drvr

 

[dutch747]

MD11 Drvr, I don't think you will change Cat. Seth's mind. It's plainly obvious he has a chip on his shoulder and wants to place blame on fellow pilots instead of the corporate weenies or maybe his own company.

But I appreciate the posts, very educational.

 

[MD11Drvr]

MD11 Drvr, I don't think you will change Cat. Seth's mind. It's plainly obvious he has a chip on his shoulder and wants to place blame on fellow pilots instead of the corporate weenies or maybe his own company.

But I appreciate the posts, very educational.

Dutch,

I am not exactly trying to change anyones mind but just to expand my own. I reserve the right to "agree to disagree" at all times. I am sympathetic to the situation but still feel the bullet was down range with ATA long before MP and GAL. Its unfortunate but we are all along for the ride so to speak where it comes to incompetent management. Welcome to aviation in the 21st century.

 

[Bellerophon]

World and NAA - if they are profitable now - are only so because of the HUGE windfall of business they recieved as a result of the lion's share of the AMC flying being re-directed to those properties. They'll look like hero's when they launch the IPO - at the expense of 2,500 ATA employees and their families.

Total B.S. The only windfall was short lived, picking up the troops ATA left stranded. I will say this slowly, we are not on your AMC team. Your team picked up your long term flying (NWA and Omni). The only thing we got were 2 old DC-10's you could not run and $350 million of debt. Oh and when no one would lend ATA a dime in the end we (WOA) gave you (ATA) $20 million. Lay blame for your airline's demise somewhere else not WOA.

Too bad your lawsuit to take our seats did not work out. You might have been my captain. Now that would have been something, B737 FO to the street then straight to MD-11 Captain.


Bel

 

[CCDiscoB]

...HUGE windfall of business they recieved as a result of the lion's share of the AMC flying being re-directed to those properties....

You got a lot of nerve saying that! Hugh windfall...right...we had airplanes sitting around doing nothing. Lion's share!!! The 3 L-1011s brought in the lions share...SCOFF!! The 757 you say, AMC hates the 757!
You make it sound like we started AMC flying because ATA, the master's of AMC flying, failed. I guess for the past 60 years of flying for the military we've been waiting for that to happen.

 

[Megadeth]

I disagree, regarding the debt and I may add all significant operational support effectively ended when the GAL transaction closed. M-P picked the operation with the highest labor costs, and deliberately tanked it.

World and NAA - if they are profitable now - are only so because of the HUGE windfall of business they recieved as a result of the lion's share of the AMC flying being re-directed to those properties. They'll look like hero's when they launch the IPO - at the expense of 2,500 ATA employees and their families.

How are our former DC-10's working out for you, by the way?[/quote



Seth, do yourself a favor, focus your energy on getting a new job before 900 United Pilots hit the street and take them.

Your seat grab lawsuit failed, World did not bring this upon you.

As for the DC-10 comment.............we luv em.

MD

 

[dutch747]

Of the 4 DC-10's at ATA, only two were operating. One marginally so. If and I do MEAN "IF" we take delivery, we will only operate one of them. As for the 3 DC-10's GAL (NOT ATA but GAL) purchased, that were originally slated to go to ATA, but before they were operational, GAL decided to send them over to WOA. And like Magadeth says, we love those airplanes.

 

[billjohnson321]

Seth,the reason ATA was shuttered was very simple,they were losing tons of money.They ran through the millions that came with the World deal in a matter of months.As far as a windfall for World because of ATAs demise,you apparently are ignorant of the manner in which AMC flying is awarded.

 

[Hocus Focus]

Guys this scenario has been played out time and time again. I personally have been on the loosing end of this saga TWICE and its no fun. WOA has done the honorable thing and extended preferential hiring to the ATA guys of which they had entirely NO OBLIGATION to do so but merely as a measure of good faith. Alot of times when we spend an extended period of time at a place and we forget that this is business and companies come and go. A little refresher is to watch the movie "Wall Street", remember Blue Star Airlines and Mr. Gecko. The small guys are always affected because they pour their lifes blood into a company and formulate a loyalty and dedication that is not mutual. The anger will subside and hurt feelings will mend but just remember the guy you offend today could be your Chief Pilot tomorrow. The tsunami is still yet to crash ashore..wait till the majors start sh*t canning people in the fall, so get in where you fit in. Finally to all ATA aviators, Im sure WOA will embrace all that get aboard with a warm and heartfelt "WELCOME". There should be no axe to grind between ATA and WOA as both are pawns in a much larger game. Be smart do not go the way of the other two airlines fighting i.e. Hattfield Air versus McCoy Air Cargo PLEASE!!

 

[b19]

Not to change the subject.....

But what's up at Gemini?

 

[Palmtree Pilot]

They're in bankruptcy, they have terminated all pilots and FE under a year, the company is not paying those guys for the last to weeks of service, their corporate credit cards have been canceled and they are set to auction business and assets off in Aug.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601127&sid=auorTg0RWZBE&refer=law

On a lighter note, more than a hand full of GAC MD11 pilots are interviewing at World this week. All information that I have is from a friend at GAC.

PtP

 

[B747FR8DAWG]

Not to change the subject.....

But what's up at Gemini?

:laugh: I was just thinking the same thing

 

[dutch747]

They're in bankruptcy, they have terminated all pilots and FE under a year, the company is not paying those guys for the last to weeks of service, their corporate credit cards have been canceled and they are set to auction business and assets off in Aug.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601127&sid=auorTg0RWZBE&refer=law

On a lighter note, more than a hand full of GAC MD11 pilots are interviewing at World this week. All information that I have is from a friend at GAC.

PtP

I just got word from a good friend at Gemini that company is NOT going to pay back the pilot group for using their own credit cards for travel and hotels these last couple of months after they lost their AMEX account.

 

[propilot]

I just got word from a good friend at Gemini that company is NOT going to pay back the pilot group for using their own credit cards for travel and hotels these last couple of months after they lost their AMEX account.

I think that person should refile their expense report or stop spreading bad rumors. I've been reimbursed for all my expenses including ones on my personal card. That includes the expense report I put in yesterday that was approved for payment on my next(and last) paycheck. So has most everyone else I've spoken with. By the way, it hasn't been months since the cards were cancelled. It was only about a week and a half ago...right about the time the big announcement came along.