What's the dumbest thing a crew has ever asked or requested?

[Mr Wu]

What I learned that evening as a new captain was that it is seldom a good idea to trust a dispatcher.

Oh, that stung a little bit.:laugh:

 

[RJAA]

Nope. I fly 'em. The Dispatcher sends them. He don't send it...I don't fly it.

If you're gonna take the role of "Mr. Operational Planner", then you oughta be able to handle it.

I'll be the other guy...the first guy at the scene of the accident.

The release in this case was completely legal. It complied with all FAR's. No NOTAMs restricted the flight. The only prohibition was internal. NWA didn't pay the higher landing fee for the larger version of our DC-9 fleet, so sending that particular model was a boo boo by Dispatch.

What I learned that evening as a new captain was that it is seldom a good idea to trust a dispatcher.

If I may say, in all likely hood, in a big and complex establishment such as NWA, there is also a position called "Operations Planner" who takes care of all of the routing of the fleet such as where they go and where do they end up sort of thing. For example, at my company, some tail numbers are off limits to DEN, MEX, SLC due to payload issues. We send the B737 classics as a last resort to SNA, LGA, and DCA. Some stations have no GPU or Airstart for the B737NGs. Although it is always a good idea as a dispatcher to keep an eye on these things and double check to make sure that wrong tail numbers are not ending up in a wrong places to avoid operational nightmares, it is hardly one of the dispatcher's prime responsibilities to make sure if the airline is willing to pay the fees incurred on your DC-9-50 at HPN or other small internal details that has nothing to do with safety of flight. If it's in the ops specs, you can go there. Dispatchers just release flights assigned to their desks in compliance of the FARs, MELs, Notams and the company regulations that are pertinent to the safety of flight. That's part of the joint responsibility of the PIC and the dispatcher. It doesn't sound like your situation had any of that violated. From what I can gather, the safety was never jeopetized by it and it was still legal, and yes somebody in the dispatch office probably did make an error. I do not endorse the Pilot vs Dispatcher argument but it's nice to introduce you the background of how things are done in the dispatch office.

 

[SSDD]

Got dispatched a couple of days ago with just a little over dest+alt(same as depar)+45 mins. Got to the terminal area and the field had gone below mins. Hung around for 5 mins then returned to departure airport with a full load of pax. Had I been able to hang around for even 15 minutes, we would have made it in.

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

 

[gooseman13]

What was your dispatcher's response when you called after receiving the release and said you'd like to add additional fuel in anticipation of holding at the destination due to weather?

 

[kack911]

I just had to respond to this. I just flew in from TNCA to PBI. Then onto BCT. PBI is only about 18nm from BCT. And flying under thunderstorms is a WHOLE lot different that through them. I used to fly single pilot freight, and getting around the storms on short hops is not too difficult down low.

Flying through a line of storms up higher is different though.

Just thought I'd add 2 cents.

In 2005, Part 121 air carriers - who require an operative weather radar when flying into areas of known hazardous weather - flew 11,245,000 departures and had a fatal accident rate of 0.015 per 100,000 departures.

On the other hand, Part 91 operators - who like to send pilots into Level 5 thunderstorms without an operative radar - had a fatal accident rate of 1.31 per 100,000 hours.

So...let me see of I understand you correctly:

In a thread where all of the pilots are busy telling us dispatchers how stupid we are, and how often we tell them to do stupid/illegal things - you actually want to tell me that its SMART to fly into embedded level 5 convective activity without a radar...because its ONLY 18 miles away?

The statistics speak for themselves. It seems like in the Part 91 world, erring on the side of caution is a sign of weakness or something. I'll tell you whats weak...not having the balls to stand up and be "that guy" who says it's not safe.

Luckily, I don't have that problem.

The Kack

 

[kack911]

Got dispatched a couple of days ago with just a little over dest+alt(same as depar)+45 mins. Got to the terminal area and the field had gone below mins. Hung around for 5 mins then returned to departure airport with a full load of pax. Had I been able to hang around for even 15 minutes, we would have made it in.

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

Well you can thank upper management for that gem of "wisdom".

At my last 121 job, OCC management used to keep a spreadsheet of how much "extra" fuel we released with for the month. Then each dispatcher was ranked against his peers. The top "offenders" were called into the office to explain why they had put "so much fuel" on x or y flight.

Their spreadsheet didn't keep a record of destination TAFs, PIREPs, GDP's, or outbound taxi delays...just that we released with x amount above MinFuel.

You guys seem to think that we get off by telling pilots that they can't have any additional fuel...like we're the Fuel Nazi or something.

I've NEVER said "no" to a reasonable request for more go-juice. And I've only challenged a handful of the most ridiculous and flagrant attempts to violate company policy on coordinating changes in fuel uplift with the dispatcher PRIOR to effecting that change.

The Kack

 

[kack911]

I think maybe you pilots need to spend a little bit more time "jumpseating" in dispatch when there's a major weather system affecting the hub.

Now, I'm not one to downplay the amount of skill and coordination it takes to hand-fly a raw data ILS down to mins with a 20kt crosswind, and not run off the end of the 6,000ft ice-covered runway, but...

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk eachother off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Go ahead, raise your hand if that's how you feel...we're all friends here.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

The Kack

The Kack

 

[ss9e]

We sure pissed away alot of fuel and goodwill in the name of fuel savings.

you're preaching to the choir dude. if it was up to us, we'd fill you up for every flight. diversions = more work for us too.

 

[ss9e]

I think maybe you pilots need to spend a little bit more time "jumpseating" in dispatch when there's a major weather system affecting the hub.

Now, I'm not one to downplay the amount of skill and coordination it takes to hand-fly a raw data ILS down to mins with a 20kt crosswind, and not run off the end of the 6,000ft ice-covered runway, but...

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk eachother off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Go ahead, raise your hand if that's how you feel...we're all friends here.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

The Kack

The Kack

amen brother.

 

[Occam's Razor]

You guys seem to think that we just sit around "in our nice warm office" and jerk each other off, while we leave you out there to fend for yourselves.

Not what I said. Not what I meant. I hope you find Moby, Ahab.

What you are failing to consider, is that we're simultaneously flight following 18 or more flights spread all over the country, flight planning the next batch 18, answering non-stop phone calls from outstations and pilots on 3 seperate lines, answering the VHF radios, answering hundreds of ACARS messages, coordinating diversions, calling ATC facilites, requesting RAMTAFs, calculating re-routes and fuel burns for airborne airplanes, coordinating with Mx Control for MEL issues, etc, etc,...

You left out: "...in continuous Moderate!"

No one is questioning the workload or stress that comes with the job. The "big picture" is more like Bigfoot to most pilots; we've heard about it, but we've never really seen it. We do the stick monkey gig and take the blame when something goes wrong...or worse, pay the price for a big mistake (or an uninerrupted series of small ones).

Accusing a dispatcher of negligence or stupidity because he misses an alternate or an FOM stipulation regarding landing fees for a -30 versus -50 is synonymous with accusing a pilot of negligence because he missed an item on the after takeoff flow because he was busy running the Engine Failure/Severe Damage QRH.

Agree. My comments were directed to SKC, who seems to think "gotcha!" is funny. My exact quote was: "Apparently, pilots and dispatchers are humans, and occasionally make mistakes. It's nice to have the other guy looking out for you."

Let's not pretend you or someone you've flown with have never forgotten to switch from Approach to Tower and landed without clearance, missed a crossing restriction or busted an altitude, or missed a handoff with center and only realized it after you hear nothing but static for 30 minutes...

Ha! My F/O's carry a folder full of pre-printed NASA forms when they see my name on the crew list! My goal is to reduce my AEPL (" average errors per leg") to less than 3.

Pilots make just as many mistakes as we do. When pilots do it, they're just human. When Dispatchers do it, we're labeled as inept or "not to be trusted".

I hate double standards.

Ok, now we have something to clarify. If the business of airline flying was a ham and eggs breakfast, the dispatcher and pilot are like the chicken and the pig. The dispatcher is the chicken, cuz he's invested. The pilot is the pig cuz he's committed! His butt is on the plate.

Perhaps that is the "double standard"?

Blue ceilings!