"What's next now for AA/US possible merger'

[charlie2]

You are correct sir. We lost.

 

[General Lee]

You are correct sir. We lost.

You are going to continue to lose. There will be no new deals or new seniority lists until the Westies get the NIC. You can try to change it or implement a new one, but once you do they are free to sue, and if it is "ripe", you will lose a lot more. So, more status quo, and that means lower than average pay.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

YOUR GUY at the Union decided it was fair to allow Nicelau to do the arbitration. He speaks for you. You elected him. TOO BAD. When someone signs up for something, especially something BINDING, you do it. You didn't have to do it initially, but YOUR GUY signed you up for it. You as a group LOST. Then, you didn't like the award, so like wheenies you tried to avoid it, while everyone was watching. I guess you also don't respect arbitrators apparently, and the APA I'm sure has taken notice. Your group is not trustworthy at all.....and is the laughing stock of the industry.


Bye Bye---General Lee

You are way too wrapped up in this to just be a Delta pilot. Either you are shacking with a AWA pilot, you are just a paid instigator, or you are the original "Move2Clt", natural born hater.

After seven years, the Nic abortion remains irrelevant and USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit, and the West can someday sue after DUI Doug finally agrees to finish negotiating and a contract is ratified by ALL LCC pilots.

 

[General Lee]

You are way too wrapped up in this to just be a Delta pilot. Either you are shacking with a AWA pilot, you are just a paid instigator, or you are the original "Move2Clt", natural born hater.

After seven years, the Nic abortion remains irrelevant and USAPA is free to bargain as they see fit, and the West can someday sue after DUI Doug finally agrees to finish negotiating and a contract is ratified by ALL LCC pilots.

I have friends that are AWA pilots, and we all think you guys are the biggest bunch of wheenies around. What is humorous is the fact that NEXT you will try to negotiate with a larger group, the APA, who will shred you to pieces and hopefully teach you all a lesson. But, the NIC award is still out there, not thrown out, and eventually the Westies will prevail. You can try to negotiate with Dougie, and see what happens, but when you submit the seniority list to the APA for yet another SLI, that is where this will come up again, and that will be your problem. They will sue when it is appropriate, and they will eventually win. Have fun with substandard pay!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MCDU]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

 

[General Lee]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

Thanks Judge Mathis. What you still don't admit to is that the NIC award is waiting for the AWA group to be "ripe", and that will happen when another seniority list is sumbitted. So, with a possible "better" merger on the horizon, your group will have to come up with something for the APA, and they can't wait to cut your smaller group up. You think your little USAPA won't be chewed up by the APA if they get a chance? They know your group already disregarded an arbitrated award, and they won't put up with that again. So, it will be fun for a lot of us to watch your group continue to be a major train wreck, all because you couldn't play fair. Have fun! Popcorn ready! Your whole deal doesn't affect me one bit, but it is fun to watch.


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[BeCareful!]

Hey MCDU, you should treat the General with respect. Look at how many posts he has: 16,188!!! That's important! And if he says ripe, then, well, that's rotten. And if he says the Nic follows, well then, check your six! And if he.....well, you get the idea. I mean, really, 16,188 posts....he must know what he's talking about.

Congrats to US Air pilots!

 

[pave driver]

It's time to move on and support the APA as we will soon need to all pull in one direction. The final outcome will make all sides a little jaded. Management is sure to have the APA in the crosshairs. Time to move on ladies and gentlemen.

 

[ableone]

So glad you responded to Private Poser. That is exactly what you are. You got no clue on labor law and the inner workings of a internal union propsal that even alpa said was negoitable. You Private Poser are a big L.

M

As usual MCDU has little to no understanding of what the case was even about.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to talk about your DOH list but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

It's not a win or a loss for the west (or the east). It puts us exactly where we were the day before the company filed the declaratory judgment request with Judge Silver.

The only party who came close to getting "spanked" was the company. They DID NOT get what they wanted.

The company will appeal this to the 9th.

 

[Turtle21]

As usual MCDU has little to no understanding of what the case was even about.

The company was asking the court to provide them with a clear cut answer so they don't have to be the bad guy.

They wanted the court to say either;

1. You are not a party to the transition agreement that you signed earlier and are immune to liability should you discard an arbitrated award. This would allow the company to negotiate with USAPA without fear of losing an otherwise strong case filed by the west pilots.

or

2. You absolutely can not deviate from the arbitrated award. In which case they could go to USAPA and say; "Hey we would like to talk about your DOH list but our hands are tied..."

The court has essentially said "The 9th circuit said the courts can't step in and make a decision until after an agreement (contract) is ratified in which case the interested parties can come back to court and sue on the merits. (Addington)

The court punted so the company's ass is still out in the breeze.

It's not a win or a loss for the west (or the east). It puts us exactly where we were the day before the company filed the declaratory judgment request with Judge Silver.

The only party who came close to getting "spanked" was the company. They DID NOT get what they wanted.

The company will appeal this to the 9th.

It appears that USAPA received what they asked for in their motion..

They wanted the court to reiterate the finding of the 9th, that USAPA was free to bargain as they see fit according to their RLA authorities, and they wanted the judge to deny LCC of any assurance of immunity. Any future West suit has an incredibly high hill to climb if a merger with AA occurs.


If a merge with AA come crashing in on the scene I think DUI will move along and not work too much on an appeal, if no merger DUI will undoubtedly work long and hard at further delay on account of an appeal.

 

[General Lee]

It appears that I think a DUI will be my next move.

I couldn't agree more. Bravo!


Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Carl S.]

Looks like we are entering the USAPA SPIN MODE once again. Did the 9th say the Nic. was dead....NO and Silver looks to keep the lowest pay to the last day dreaming of entering a new SLI process for AWA/AAA... which could never use MB since it happen before that rule occured.

 

[General Lee]

From our friends at APC, a Westie named Cactiboss:



The company asked the court to answer counts 1 and 2, and if the court didn't answer either to give the company immunity from the west in count 3. Now this was a DJ case yet the judge said she wouldn't give the company a DJ, in fact the court today said it wouldn't answer any of the questions asked. So as of today, the company still does not have an answer, the judge basically deferred to the 9th's opinion. Negotiate and if usapa commits dfr you may be liable but we must wait for a contract to do that. Remember the west didn't sue, the company did, and they told the west attorneys they would appeal the decision and not negotiate.



And then another one from a guy named CactusMike: (from APC)


Well it was supposed to be an important day. Most of the Leonidas guys were there and some of our guys that have been an integral part of the West battle since day one of the merger were as well. We have had pretty good legal analysis from them. USAPA can put forth any list they want but any list that does not follow the Nicolau award will result in a ripe DFR suit. And now the company will be on the hook as well if they accept USAPAs DOH list since the company has already accepted the NIC list.

Judge Silver was aware that Judge Wake found USPA guilty of DFR. She was also aware that the 9th ruled that the DFR does not occur until a contract is put forth. She asked about a 3 way seniority integration with East, West and AA. Problem is there is no mechanism for the West to be represented by themselves since USAPA did away with ALPA and the separate MECs and separate ratification. Any USAPA attempt to deviate from the Nic in negotiating a SLI going forward would, again, be a DFR. Since we have Judge Wake's ruling behind us a new DFR suit would be a speedy trial.

Really, though, in the end this is about the company and their failure to exert leadership. We have a binding contract between the parties - the Transition Agreement (TA). That contract specified the SLI process. That process was followed. Anyone that deviated from that contract is now subject to breach of contract. If Parker wants to get this done then all he has to say is we will use the list that as produced as a result of the TA. That is is safest legal recourse. He has benefitted for 5 years by keeping the groups separate, saving hundreds of millions of dollars. Now, when he has the chance to make hundreds more by combining with AA do you think he will take the easy way or the hard way? I think he will take the easy way out and go with the Nic list in a future SLI with AA. Remember, he cannot be held at fault if he just uses the list produced as a result of the TA. That is the safe legal ground.



This will be very interesting to watch! Talk about a train wreck....



Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[Turtle21]

No injunction. DUI will not delay anymore unless it makes him money. If he has a chance to put AA and USAPA together he will suddenly have amnesia about Nic. The majority of pilots are getting real tire of all the lawyer delays and realize that it ain't the courts that are holding things up anymore. Its time to move on. Its settled at least for the majority, and Silver reaffirmed democracy is still legal.

 

[Carl S.]

Settled for the majority will not float in the court of law. Stay tuned for several more years of LOA 93 for you and your majority....

 

[MCDU]

Settled for the majority will not float in the court of law. Stay tuned for several more years of LOA 93 for you and your majority....

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$. Enjoy being a permanent Flap operator. New hires East looking to upgrade 3-4 years. East hiring indefinitely. None of the new hires want to have 1600 westies ahead, especially since PHX will be gone. I guess the easiest would be just to sell PHX to Republic.

M

 

[ableone]

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$.

M

Yes but you get paid neither amount because you are just a Gulfstream Pretender who could not even hold on to a job you paid for.

Tell your Daddy hello.

 

[General Lee]

Enjoy your stagnation out West. I would rather be paid 125$ then 85$. Enjoy being a permanent Flap operator. New hires East looking to upgrade 3-4 years. East hiring indefinitely. None of the new hires want to have 1600 westies ahead, especially since PHX will be gone. I guess the easiest would be just to sell PHX to Republic.

M

I make more than you do as an FO. You are the laughing stock of the industry. And don't the West guys make more per hour on the same plane as the Easties (319/320/321)? You know they do.


Hey, here's a better article describing your mess:

Industrials



Judge to US Airways: Pilot Pact Can Eschew Disputed Seniority List
By Ted Reed 10/03/12 - 12:13 PM EDT




PHOENIX --(The STREET)-- A proposed decision by a U.S. District Court Judge in Phoenix could enable US Airways( and its pilots to restart contract negotiations, which ground to a halt five years ago because of a bitter battle over pilot seniority.



The proposed ruling, suggested Tuesday by Judge Roslyn Silver, apparently will say the airline and its pilots union can negotiate a contract that does not include an arbitrators' controversial 2007 seniority list. A dispute over the list has deeply separated pilots ever since the 2005 merger between USAirways and America West.


Silver's ruling would not, however, disenfranchise supporters of the list proposed by arbitrator George Nicolau. Rather, it would delay the possibility of legal action on a contract until a contract actually exists -- in the court's terms, until the issue is "ripe." In that regard, Silver reiterated the findings of a 2010 ruling by a U.S. Appeals Court in San Francisco, which had overruled a previous ruling on the simmering dispute by a different judge in the Phoenix court.

So the likelihood of further legal action -- by America West pilots, the airline, or both -- remains.


Silver on Tuesday heard a request by US Airways for a ruling on whether it must accept the Nicolau award or whether it can negotiate a contract that doesn't include the ruling. The carrier has said it simply wants to negotiate a contract without being liable afterwards.

The hearing lasted about an hour and 20 minutes. More than 100 pilots, nearly all of them from America West, attended, spilling over into the empty jury box where Silver allowed seating. She began the session by saying she had written a proposed ruling, then asked attorneys for the three parties -- the airline, USAPA, and the west pilot group - if they sought any alterations. She heard oral testimony and said she will issue a final ruling shortly.

Although pilots from predecessor US Airways agreed to binding arbitration on seniority, they generally felt so disenfranchised by Nicolau's list that they voted to leave the AirLinePilotsAssociation after 57 years and to create a new union, the U.S. Airline Pilots Association. The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

In a statement following Tuesday's hearing, the USAPA declared that Silver's proposal "if it becomes final, will grant summary judgment to USAPA, holding that USAPA is free to pursue any seniority proposal, and need not advance the Nicolau award."

Reaching out to west pilots, USAPA said that its attorney "reiterated that USAPA was prepared to engage in serious, genuine discussions with the west pilots over the seniority proposal, and was hopeful the parties would continue to work together to achieve a new comprehensive collective bargaining agreement."


Added union President Gary Hummel: "USAPA stands ready to negotiate a contract for all of our 5,000 pilots, whether through a merger or otherwise. We are long overdue a contract that brings us up to par with our peers at other airlines such as Delta(DAL) and United(UAL). Now that this obstacle has been removed, we will immediately petition the National Mediation Board to resume Section 6 contract negotiations."


Mark Burman, spokesman for Leonidas, an association of west pilots, called USAPA's statement "a gross overstatement and a huge disservice to the pilot group.

"They are way ahead of the game," Burman said. "They want to say 'free at last, free at last,' but USAPA cannot legally evade 'the Nic' without a legitimate union objective and a modification to the transition agreement (between the carrier and its pilots.) This requires written agreement with the company. At present the company appears to know it has serious potential legal liability if it (agrees)."

A US Airways spokesman said the carrier would have no comment until Judge Silver issues her final ruling.

According to a former America West pilot who attended the hearing and asked not to be named, attorneys for the three parties presented these arguments: The US Airways attorney initially said the judge's proposed ruling does not sufficiently protect the carrier. The America West pilots' attorney said that if a new contract includes the date-of-hire seniority list espoused by USAPA, west pilots would consider that to be an indication of collusion between the carrier and USAPA. The USAPA attorney said the union takes seriously its duty to represent pilots from both groups.





Bye Bye---General Lee

 

[MCDU]

The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

Nice. I think that is something every pilot should except and should not fight. Just like selling out scope. Just except it. Next code share and then cabotage. Except it and move on.That is the General way of doing things.

M

 

[General Lee]

The list's most controversial component placed a 56-year-old pilot with 17 years at US Airways, who was never laid off, behind a 35-year-old America West pilot with a few months on the job. In hundreds of similar cases, east pilots with 15 or more years at the carrier went behind west pilots with just a few years.

Nice. I think that is something every pilot should except and should not fight. Just like selling out scope. Just except it. Next code share and then cabotage. Except it and move on.That is the General way of doing things.

M

Hey, you sign up for binding arbitration, you follow the award. Nobody forced your guy (in charge of your own MEC) to sign up for it. Then the company agreed in the Transition agreement, meaning they also agreed to the eventual award. That is what is causing your company pause in doing any new contract with you. They may be free to negotiate now, but if the list is altered to your DOH stuff, it will be very costly. What does that mean? That means you continue at status quo, with below average wages. Oh well.



Bye Bye---General Lee