what the hell "sapa"

Ski Bum

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why not just hold the election now? I believe in the democratic process and am anxious to see the results.
The democratic process contains quite a bit of campaigning if you haven't noticed. One of the major issues the OC is facing is the false belief that we are in fact "respresented" by SAPA. Lots of folks fall into this trap and don't believe we need a union because we already have SAPA. These latest letters from the SAPA President and the SAPA "company men" are finally bringing out into the open what many pilots have known for years...SKYW pilots are not represented by SAPA. Management is represented by SAPA. These issues would never have been brought into the light if the OC just rushed into a vote.

Everybody is anxious to see the results, but I can't help but notice that it is all of the folks not in favor of ALPA that want to "have the vote already." Seems to me that they notice the ALPA drive picking up a lot of steam as our pilot groups realizes their need for real representation.
 

Howard Hughes

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I have to agree with coalpha,

The pilots of Skywest recently elected a new President to our "association". After the management installed, non-line pilot (no medical) secretary (who depends on sapa for an income) testified in court that he thinks he is the administrative head of SAPA, the duly elected President sent out a letter to the pilots saying that this had happened, and that the next SAPA meeting is cancelled. Well 9 of the SAPA board have decided to go ahead with the meeting anyway while 10 are standing by the President (at least that's how it looks right now).

There are threats of recalls of these reps, and a poll on the sapa website shows overwhelming support for a recall election. This is getting very interesting.
Reminds me of Crimson Tide:

Sapa President = Denzel Washington
These other guys = Gene Hackmans dog
 

SkyNation

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Everybody is anxious to see the results, but I can't help but notice that it is all of the folks not in favor of ALPA that want to "have the vote already." Seems to me that they notice the ALPA drive picking up a lot of steam as our pilot groups realizes their need for real representation.
not the case. Spoke with TS, the SLC guy for the OC effort. He explained the major obstacle is guys from ALPA carriers who have come to SkyWest. I've said this all along, since I'm one of them. Don't try to sell me the same crappy car that I've already owned once before. Been there, got the stickers, no thanks.

everyone airline has problems, everyone has someone they blame for them. we just don't pay 2% for the luxury of blaming ALPA just to 'be in the club.'
 

Ski Bum

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Been there, got the stickers, no thanks.

everyone airline has problems, everyone has someone they blame for them. we just don't pay 2% for the luxury of blaming ALPA just to 'be in the club.'
Members of the OC and many members of our pilot group do not want to join ALPA so we can sit at the "cool kids table" or be "in the club." We want to join because the stickers that you mock actually mean something. "Schedule with Safety" "Never Forget" "75 Years" just to name a few. It's fine if you have had a bad experience with unions and it is your right to vote whichever way you chose, but do not belittle the countless sacrifices, volunteer hours, and collective bargaining that have turned your "stickers" into a safer and more profitable piloting profession.

I for one, do not want to "blame" anybody, but rather move forward and make Skywest stronger through ALPA.
 

Gobi Gred

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Well said, Ski Bum. It seems many of today's pilots have forgotten about the sacrifices those before us made to improve our profession.
 

FlySacto

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I found it interesting ALPA is suing to suspend the SAPA program. Pretty dirty trick. Take away all representation so pilot's are forced to vote in ALPA. Great organization there... nice to see they're trying to screw us already.
I'm sure that without the 105hrs credit all the motivation to help out their fellow pilot disappears. I guess if managment doesn't pay them they can't just volunteer their time to continue all that good work as in the past. I've flown these guys around so they could spend several days working out all those important negotiations to managment. Hey, let's hang out in Monterey for a few days with the flight attendant reps and get that pay package put together. Thanks from all us guys on the EMB for all your hard work!!!
 

Gr82Aviate

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I'm sure that without the 105hrs credit all the motivation to help out their fellow pilot disappears. I guess if managment doesn't pay them they can't just volunteer their time to continue all that good work as in the past. I've flown these guys around so they could spend several days working out all those important negotiations to managment. Hey, let's hang out in Monterey for a few days with the flight attendant reps and get that pay package put together. Thanks from all us guys on the EMB for all your hard work!!!





Let's not forget a big thanks for those of us who haven't had any raises for years because we are capped out and don't get COLA anymore...The 1% was only good for about 3 months at the current inflation rate, this means going backward for 10 + years!
 

HelloNewman

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who cares ALPA is still a much more corrupt organization than SAPA ever will be!!!

Question: What is the difference between SAPA and ALPA?

Answer: SAPA's services are free, ALPA screws you out of 2% every month and still doesn't do anything about it. look at ASA. Five years and counting. Tick Tick Tick.

SAPA is not handling this situation properly that is for sure. Does this mean the union will be voted in? Hell no it doesn't. Most people still want nothing to do with that woerthless organization called ALPA. The new president doesn't even listen to the will of the pilots(re: age 60).

People say ALPA forces management to negotiate in "good faith". What good does this do when the NMB will not release anyone? Lets face it guys the ride is over. We pilots have been exposed for what we really are. Glorified button pushers and we simply do not command the pay recieved in the past. The NMB is rightfully aware of this. If you want job security go work for the government. We all knew what we were getting into when we signed up for this job!!

BTW ALPA blowhards talk about how the union can get your job back. DD got a much sweeter deal with his wrongful termination lawsuit. He will make millions and not have to go back to flying the line. That is a much better reward than getting your job back only to waste 2% of your check every month to a corrupt organization.
 

atrdriver

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who cares ALPA is still a much more corrupt organization than SAPA ever will be!!!

Question: What is the difference between SAPA and ALPA?

Answer: SAPA's services are free, ALPA screws you out of 2% every month and still doesn't do anything about it. look at ASA. Five years and counting. Tick Tick Tick.

Maybe they are free because they are worthless. And anyone who honestly doesn't believe that ALPA hasn't helped at ASA is truly either someone who has no idea what has happened there, or is simply an idiot.
 

Gr82Aviate

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Maybe they are free because they are worthless. And anyone who honestly doesn't believe that ALPA hasn't helped at ASA is truly either someone who has no idea what has happened there, or is simply an idiot.






In Newwoman's case it's both of the above!
 

Nightrain_080

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So here's what I'm wondering. If/when the court rules that SAPA is illegal, isn't the next logical step for someone (OC or some other disaffected pilot)to file a class action lawsuit for back pay?

Think about it, if the court rules against the existence of SAPA then isn't it basically saying management has been negotiating with ITSELF all of these years rather than negotiating with the pilots.
High Altitude Extortion.
 

FmrFreightDog

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Lets face it guys the ride is over. We pilots have been exposed for what we really are. Glorified button pushers and we simply do not command the pay recieved in the past. The NMB is rightfully aware of this. If you want job security go work for the government. We all knew what we were getting into when we signed up for this job!!
I've never in my life seen anyone consistently sell himself short as you seem to like to do. SKW guys, please tell me this guy isn't actually a line pilot. Please tell me he's either a 14 year old with nothing better to do or a member of your management team.........

You may have gotten into this job with low expectations, but some of us who have been around for a while feel differently. You may not appreciate the responsibility that comes with this job, but I assure you that your Captains do. You may feel adequately compensated for your 385 hours away from base a month, but I assure you that your coworkers who have families at home do not. You simply have not been in this industry long enough to know what you as a professional "button pusher" are worth. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will be able to appreciate the fact that the skill set you are paid for is wisdom and judgement rather than simply pushing buttons. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that leaving a wife and a child at home for four days a week isn't all that easy. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that you deserve to be fairly compensated for such things. How many nights a month do Jerry and Brad spend away from their families? How often do they make operational decisions that directly affect the safety of their customers? Yet you continue to be willing to work for less than you are worth simply to line their pockets.

Until you have matured enough to have a little perspective, you really are just a "glorified button pusher." I just hope, for your passengers' sake, you never find yourself in a command position until you truly understand what doing this job well is all about.
 

HelloNewman

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Maybe they are free because they are worthless. And anyone who honestly doesn't believe that ALPA hasn't helped at ASA is truly either someone who has no idea what has happened there, or is simply an idiot.
Free is free and we are still doing pretty darn well as far as pay goes. How has ALPA helped ASA in the last 5 years? NO NEW CONTRACT? STILL PAYING 2% for the crappy 50 seater/atr pay scales. Not even making as much as we make at skywest with the 70 seat rates. NEXT!!
 

HelloNewman

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I've never in my life seen anyone consistently sell himself short as you seem to like to do. SKW guys, please tell me this guy isn't actually a line pilot. Please tell me he's either a 14 year old with nothing better to do or a member of your management team.........

You may have gotten into this job with low expectations, but some of us who have been around for a while feel differently. You may not appreciate the responsibility that comes with this job, but I assure you that your Captains do. You may feel adequately compensated for your 385 hours away from base a month, but I assure you that your coworkers who have families at home do not. You simply have not been in this industry long enough to know what you as a professional "button pusher" are worth. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will be able to appreciate the fact that the skill set you are paid for is wisdom and judgement rather than simply pushing buttons. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that leaving a wife and a child at home for four days a week isn't all that easy. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that you deserve to be fairly compensated for such things. How many nights a month do Jerry and Brad spend away from their families? How often do they make operational decisions that directly affect the safety of their customers? Yet you continue to be willing to work for less than you are worth simply to line their pockets.

Until you have matured enough to have a little perspective, you really are just a "glorified button pusher." I just hope, for your passengers' sake, you never find yourself in a command position until you truly understand what doing this job well is all about.
Perspective is perspective. We still do nothing but push buttons and wait for something to go wrong. Honestly how often does something go terribly wrong?? BTW an engine failure doesn't count. We are trained to turn the autopilot on and push buttons after 600 feet. I am a line pilot out in chicago, find people who have flown with me. I am not afraid to let people I fly with know who I am and what I am about.

BTW my TAFB doesnt even come close to the 385 hrs that you claim. Another perfect example of union over stating the facts. Prove to me that we are more important that button pushers. The autopilot comes on and then we focus on other things until a bell goes off which is very rare. I make good money for what i do which is absolutely nothing but listen to atc, make good landings and push buttons.
 

Nightrain_080

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MN is a sort-of 'trojan horse' for the ALPA drive, albeit a poorly disguised one. Anyone who has talked to him should have known that before voting for him. I like him a lot, but I knew that if elected his agenda was to install ALPA by whatever means he could. We differ in what we feel best serves this pilot group.

This should serve as a reminder that they don't have the support to just hold the stupid vote and move on with things. This is a way to 'end around' the process by de-certifying SAPA.

just hold the vote! then we can move beyond this nonsense. and if ALPA is voted in, we can start our clock ticking away the years until anything changes.
de-certify SAPA....LOL now that is comedy. No pilot at SkyWest ever certified SAPA. SAPA exists because management approved it.

A lot of mass producing home builders have on-site real estate professionals put in place at their model homes to sell and show the homes. They are supposed to get you the best deal on a home. They are there for you.....remember they are your agent. Although they work for the home builder too. Caught between a rock and a hard place they do what they can for you but keeping things tight for the builder. After years of success and a happy home builder with pissed off home buyers the agents are set. Well Sapa is exactly the same at skywest. They are not 100% behind the pilots. They are not even close. At best 49%. M.N. has shown us his cards. He has more character then all of the E.B. combined. Who cares if your against ALPA. You still can't lie in bed with SAPA and expect they are 100% behind our pilots. Time to get rid of SAPA and the bloody worthless cry baby executive board. )bored(
Look at how the rest of silent Sapa comes to life when their 105 hours of azz sitting time is in jeopardy. How about get off your corn holes when it's time to confront uncle rico for either a real pay raise or free helicopter lessons for all of us.
 

Nightrain_080

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I've never in my life seen anyone consistently sell himself short as you seem to like to do. SKW guys, please tell me this guy isn't actually a line pilot. Please tell me he's either a 14 year old with nothing better to do or a member of your management team.........

You may have gotten into this job with low expectations, but some of us who have been around for a while feel differently. You may not appreciate the responsibility that comes with this job, but I assure you that your Captains do. You may feel adequately compensated for your 385 hours away from base a month, but I assure you that your coworkers who have families at home do not. You simply have not been in this industry long enough to know what you as a professional "button pusher" are worth. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will be able to appreciate the fact that the skill set you are paid for is wisdom and judgement rather than simply pushing buttons. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that leaving a wife and a child at home for four days a week isn't all that easy. When you are a little bit older, perhaps you will realize that you deserve to be fairly compensated for such things. How many nights a month do Jerry and Brad spend away from their families? How often do they make operational decisions that directly affect the safety of their customers? Yet you continue to be willing to work for less than you are worth simply to line their pockets.

Until you have matured enough to have a little perspective, you really are just a "glorified button pusher." I just hope, for your passengers' sake, you never find yourself in a command position until you truly understand what doing this job well is all about.
Yeah I totally agree. Excellent points. It's obvious that he as issues with authority and respecting his elders. This attitude of "glorified button pusher" shows his true colors. Not much of a soul. Usually these types get weeded out sooner or later. He would also be the one to run instead of stay and fight.
 

Gr82Aviate

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de-certify SAPA....LOL now that is comedy. No pilot at SkyWest ever certified SAPA. SAPA exists because management approved it.

A lot of mass producing home builders have on-site real estate professionals put in place at their model homes to sell and show the homes. They are supposed to get you the best deal on a home. They are there for you.....remember they are your agent. Although they work for the home builder too. Caught between a rock and a hard place they do what they can for you but keeping things tight for the builder. After years of success and a happy home builder with pissed off home buyers the agents are set. Well Sapa is exactly the same at skywest. They are not 100% behind the pilots. They are not even close. At best 49%. M.N. has shown us his cards. He has more character then all of the E.B. combined. Who cares if your against ALPA. You still can't lie in bed with SAPA and expect they are 100% behind our pilots. Time to get rid of SAPA and the bloody worthless cry baby executive board. )bored(
Look at how the rest of silent Sapa comes to life when their 105 hours of azz sitting time is in jeopardy. How about get off your corn holes when it's time to confront uncle rico for either a real pay raise or free helicopter lessons for all of us.


Well spoken!
 

HelloNewman

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Yeah I totally agree. Excellent points. It's obvious that he as issues with authority and respecting his elders. This attitude of "glorified button pusher" shows his true colors. Not much of a soul. Usually these types get weeded out sooner or later. He would also be the one to run instead of stay and fight.
Just because someone is an old fart doesn't mean they are worth listening to! Weeded out? HA! not hardly. I know how to play the game and tell interviewers what they want to hear. In fact I have an interview coming up at a major airline that does not require turbine PIC time. I will not say where so people do not try and sabotage me simply because of my anti-union beliefs. Trust me, the game is easy to play. You simply tell the interviewers what they want to hear.
 

Nightrain_080

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Good riddance. At least you'll probably won't be a captain for 5 or more years. Our PIC prayers are answered. Just let us know how allegiant airlines treats their employees.
 
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