what the hell "sapa"

[ArcticFlier]

Don't sweat it guys. At the worst I'll cancel Newdorks vote. If he leaves, we're in the plus column...............

 

[Ben Dover]

I voted Mark in as SAPA president, not as a contributor to its demise.

This is such an interesting remark. Think about it. SAPA worked in the past when either pro managment guys or guys easily turned by management got elected.

Over the years there has been an erosion of QOL and fewer managment lap dogs have gotten elected. Then finally you get a few guys like Mark & Griggs who won't let management turn them (and aren't the selfish opportunists like the Daves). And low and behold, SAPA self-destructs!!!

It's really not an indictment of Mark, it's an indictment of the SAPA institution itself. I mean if a organization self-distructs simply because a few guys with differing views get elected BY THE MAJORITY, what does that say about the organization?

 

[skypine69]

newman...you are a tool. if you hate unions so f**ing much why are you interviewing with a union carrier? is because they get paid more and have more days off? i wonder how in the he!! that came to be

 

[www.]

In fact I have an interview coming up at a major airline that does not require turbine PIC time. I will not say where so people do not try and sabotage me simply because of my anti-union beliefs.

Is this so called Major a union airline?

 

[www.]

This is such an interesting remark. Think about it. SAPA worked in the past when either pro managment guys or guys easily turned by management got elected.

The real question is worked for them OR worked with them.

 

[www.]

Don't sweat it guys. At the worst I'll cancel Newdorks vote. If he leaves, we're in the plus column...............

Anyone, anyone at Skywest know the person in records that handles the PRIA requests?

 

[skypine69]

are there any major airlines that are not union? with the exception of overseas airlines i cant think of any. where are you newman....why are you interviewing with a union carrier. i trust that you will divulge that you have no intention of joining the union when hired. anything else would be dishonest, yes?

 

[skypine69]

where are you newman??? simple question...why are you interviewing with a union carrier? are you going to divulge your hatred of unions in the interview?

 

[SkyNation]

SAPA guys accused of ulterior motives, OC guys accused of the same.

Pot, I'd like to introduce Kettle.

MN is supposed to be the president of SAPA, not a Trojan Horse sent in to undermine and eventually undo it. Copy of a portion of statements from his testimony in federal court;

CROSS EXAMINATION (of MN)

BY MR. SPAGAT:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. N.
A. Good Afternoon
Q. You are an ALPA supporter; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were when you ran for president of SAPA?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were elected president of SAPA, it being known
that you were an ALPA supporter?
A. That was not public.
Q. It's known now; isn't that true?
A. It is now, yes, sir.

 

[skypine69]

what does the fact the MN is a alpa supporter have anything to do with anything. he came in and wanted to work within the system to help make skywest better for pilots. there are a number of reps that support alpa. are you saying that you cant be in sapa if you support alpa? seems rather strange. also seems strange that his whole testimony was not published. what about MEs testimoney that he not qualified to be in sapa, why didnt anyone publish that.

 

[SkyNation]

you can be a rep and support, or be a member of, the OC.

it is duplicitous and deceptive, however, to hide your support for one or the other until elected.

 

[Nightrain_080]

ouchy

SAPA guys accused of ulterior motives, OC guys accused of the same.

Pot, I'd like to introduce Kettle.

MN is supposed to be the president of SAPA, not a Trojan Horse sent in to undermine and eventually undo it. Copy of a portion of statements from his testimony in federal court;

CROSS EXAMINATION (of MN)

BY MR. SPAGAT:

Q. Good afternoon, Mr. N.
A. Good Afternoon
Q. You are an ALPA supporter; is that correct?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were when you ran for president of SAPA?
A. That's correct.
Q. And you were elected president of SAPA, it being known
that you were an ALPA supporter?
A. That was not public.
Q. It's known now; isn't that true?
A. It is now, yes, sir.

IF this is all you have then take it and run. M.N. is working for the pilots not for a future management job. You can't have one leg in bed with management and the other leg with the pilots. WAKE UP. If you can placate the daves and their double talk and arse kissing then you deserve what they give you. 0% raise for Brasilia drivers? 1% for the RJ and a hokey Bend override for the 700/900. That should be all the information you need to make a conscious decision on whether or not the daves and sapa are really in your corner. Let's not wait around another 7+ years to get a seat at the table where at least we have a REAL chance at cashing in our ACE. At the present moment Aces don't exist, they're a bloody pipe dream.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

you can be a rep and support, or be a member of, the OC.

it is duplicitous and deceptive, however, to hide your support for one or the other until elected.

There's a difference between "hiding" something, and choosing not to make a huge issue out of it...his support was not hidden! If you didn't have such a huge chip on your shoulder against ALPA, the fact that all he really wants is to do is improve things for Skyw pilots(which is what we elected him for), is all that matters!

 

[SkyNation]

If you didn't have such a huge chip on your shoulder against ALPA, the fact that all he really wants is to do is improve things for Skyw pilots(which is what we elected him for), is all that matters!

that's what we all want, that goes without saying. the vehicle that will get us there is where the dispute lies. I don't believe ALPA will get us anything better than what we currently have, but will bring with it lots of things the majority of us don't want. I don't have a 'chip' on my shoulder regarding it, but I DO have experience flying for an ALPA represented pilot group. do you? I don't have any fantasies or illusions about what they can/will do for us.

the head of the OC effort in SLC told me their biggest obstacle is guys who've come from ALPA carriers and want nothing to do with it. why is my experience and that of almost all the other folks who've come from ALPA regionals automatically discounted and discredited by the OC and it's supporters? does our experience count for anything?

we all want what we feel like would be better for the airline. what that is and how we get there is where we differ.

 

[skyhogg]

but I DO have experience flying for an ALPA represented pilot group. do you?

Skynation:

Although I disagree with you, I recognize your posts as usually well thought out and I see that you believe in your position and thats cool.

This quote however seems to be your tag line over and over again and it gets tiresome. I HAVE worked for an ALPA carrier and I had some things there that I wish I had at SKW but will never have (insurances at the very least and yes, I think most would agree they are worth the money).

For those that haven't worked anywhere but SKW, I think that you are smart enough to realize that they can formulate an opinion nonetheless by observation and by listening to others.

For every former ALPA guy at SKW who's happy to be non union now, I'll bet you could find 2 (if you looked at ALL ALPA carriers) who are thankful to have some of the protections afforded by legal representation. Is it a magic pill? Of course not...but noone here, to my recollection has ever said that it would make everything perfect forever.

Keep the thoughtful posts coming...but lay off the "I've been there, have you?" rhetoric. Many of us have and those who havent dont need the condescending remarks to deminish their opinions.

 

[SSDD]

The problem with most of these guys who have made lateral moves from another regional to Skywest, is that they came from real crappy operations. Their experiences are not typical. For those places to be where they are right now is a tremendous accomplishment.

They conviniently overlook those details.

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader, but I recognize that things at Skywest are worse today than they were 8 or 10 years ago.

 

[Stifler's Mom]

I'm not an ALPA cheerleader, but I recognize that things at Skywest are worse today than they were 8 or 10 years ago.

This is the exact person who SKW people need to speak with, not somebody who made a lateral move within the past 2 years or so.

Good luck SSDD and others.

 

[SkyNation]

This quote however seems to be your tag line over and over again and it gets tiresome. ..but lay off the "I've been there, have you?" rhetoric. Many of us have and those who havent dont need the condescending remarks to deminish their opinions.

understood. I can do without those who patently disregard my posts just because I don't agree with them and their positions. I'd guess that is about 90% of the folks here. In like manner, I don't need their condescending remarks.

I look forward to when/if this thing ever gets voted on. I believe the majority will side with my line of thinking, believing that what we have is better than what most ALPA represented regionals have been able to get. Until we see others doing better (not just one regional), it's a tough sell and the majority just a'int buying.

 

[SSDD]

The thing is there is no changing these people's minds until they themselves get screwed, then they become true believers.

 

[Gr82Aviate]

that's what we all want, that goes without saying. the vehicle that will get us there is where the dispute lies. I don't believe ALPA will get us anything better than what we currently have, but will bring with it lots of things the majority of us don't want. I don't have a 'chip' on my shoulder regarding it, but I DO have experience flying for an ALPA represented pilot group. do you? I don't have any fantasies or illusions about what they can/will do for us.

the head of the OC effort in SLC told me their biggest obstacle is guys who've come from ALPA carriers and want nothing to do with it. why is my experience and that of almost all the other folks who've come from ALPA regionals automatically discounted and discredited by the OC and it's supporters? does our experience count for anything?

we all want what we feel like would be better for the airline. what that is and how we get there is where we differ.

First off, I've worked at plenty of other flying jobs before coming here...but more importantly you keep repeating ad nauseum your above line "we all want what we feel like would be better for the airline. what that is and how we get there is where we differ."
Okay, other than ALPA, How do we get there???? We've been sliding backwards with SAPA representing managements best interests for years, and the inhouse union thing has already been tried and failed.

 

[Nightrain_080]

body language

understood. I can do without those who patently disregard my posts just because I don't agree with them and their positions. I'd guess that is about 90% of the folks here. In like manner, I don't need their condescending remarks.

I look forward to when/if this thing ever gets voted on. I believe the majority will side with my line of thinking, believing that what we have is better than what most ALPA represented regionals have been able to get. Until we see others doing better (not just one regional), it's a tough sell and the majority just a'int buying.

Are you happy with the pay at Skywest?

Do you support the raise the Brasilia pilots were given?

How many years do you have with Skywest?

 

[Ski Bum]

the head of the OC effort in SLC told me their biggest obstacle is guys who've come from ALPA carriers and want nothing to do with it. why is my experience and that of almost all the other folks who've come from ALPA regionals automatically discounted and discredited by the OC and it's supporters? does our experience count for anything?

I seriously do not mean this to be condescending, but the reason that most of the folks discredit your opinion is that the majority of previous ALPA pilots that come to SKYW from other airlines have less than 1 year experience. I am not saying you did, but most come off of being an "apprentice" member and have never volunteered or even enjoyed the full benefits of being an "active" ALPA member. They are merely blaming their QOL on ALPA instead of management, industry circumstances, or they went to the "other guys" just to build time before they could come to SKY.

They do not understand that cycles in our industry often take a decade or more to evolve and that their 1 year of experience at an "ALPA" carrier doesn't mean a whole heck of a lot to a pilot who has been in the business for 10, 15, or 20 years. It is kind of like a teenager trying to tell their parents that they know what to do and what is best.

With that being said, whether you have 1 year experience or 30, the only thing that anyone ever really knows is their own personal experience. If you had a bad one with your local union that fell under the ALPA umbrella, then so be it. I, on the other hand, had a great experience with ALPA am tired of the lies that SAPA has told, and am tired of the lies SAPA continues to tell.

I am ready for a new direction where SKYW pilots can actually have a voice in a union.

 

[Tomct]

So here's what I'm wondering. If/when the court rules that SAPA is illegal, isn't the next logical step for someone (OC or some other disaffected pilot)to file a class action lawsuit for back pay?

Think about it, if the court rules against the existence of SAPA then isn't it basically saying management has been negotiating with ITSELF all of these years rather than negotiating with the pilots.

DING....DING...DING...
We have a WINNER!!!!!:laugh:

 

[Tomct]

does our experience count for anything?


NOPE!! Nor Should IT!

 

[SkyNation]

Are you happy with the pay at Skywest?

Do you support the raise the Brasilia pilots were given?

How many years do you have with Skywest?

1-everybody wants more money. I'm happy knowing that I make as much or more than others who are similarly employed at other regionals, and that our company is financially healthy and competitive in the market

2-again, who wouldn't want more? they make more than any other 30 seat T-prop drivers, however, and you have to be realistic about the environment, the competition, and where your pay lines up in regards to others

3-3

now is where all the haters will claim I haven't been here long enough to 'really' know what is going on. flame away.

I simply recognize that what we have is as good or better than any other regional in terms of pay, QOL, current and future opportunities, stability, etc. your opinion may differ.

the fantasy that persists seems to be that with ALPA on board we'll just demand things and get them, and that these items that you are unhappy with will just be taken care of because ALPA can force management to do what they want.

whether it is ALPA, SAPA, Teamsters or the Tuesday Evening Ladies Bridge Club negotiating for you, you're not going to get anything more than management will agree to.

 

[USCtrojan]

1-everybody wants more money. I'm happy knowing that I make as much or more than others who are similarly employed at other regionals, and that our company is financially healthy and competitive in the market

2-again, who wouldn't want more? they make more than any other 30 seat T-prop drivers, however, and you have to be realistic about the environment, the competition, and where your pay lines up in regards to others

3-3

now is where all the haters will claim I haven't been here long enough to 'really' know what is going on. flame away.

I simply recognize that what we have is as good or better than any other regional in terms of pay, QOL, current and future opportunities, stability, etc. your opinion may differ.

the fantasy that persists seems to be that with ALPA on board we'll just demand things and get them, and that these items that you are unhappy with will just be taken care of because ALPA can force management to do what they want.

whether it is ALPA, SAPA, Teamsters or the Tuesday Evening Ladies Bridge Club negotiating for you, you're not going to get anything more than management will agree to.

Skynation:

While I respect your opinions and arguments, I just don't agree at all. You have your lifestyle because of our/my fight. You have your work rules and cushy life at work because of my/our sacrifices. Our/my sacrifices give you everything you seem so happy to have. It seems most of the Skywest pilots I talk to understand this wholeheartedly. They want to join in raising the profession before their "bubble world" goes completely away. If everyone else stopped fighting, your airline would suck. That's the one constant your expecting. That's the one constant that keeps your "bubble world." And with all due respect, I really am tired of supplying it for you.

Trojan

 

[SkyNation]

Skynation:

While I respect your opinions and arguments, I just don't agree at all.

I appreciate your opinion. I have mine. SkyWest responds to the market, not to ALPA, Teamsters, or whomever. ALPA doesn't dictate to the market what pay, QOL, work rules, etc. will be. It is the other way around.


If we are only replicating what other regionals got before us, then why do we have so many things that are better?

I don't agree with your argument. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[USCtrojan]

I appreciate your opinion. I have mine. SkyWest responds to the market, not to ALPA, Teamsters, or whomever. ALPA doesn't dictate to the market what pay, QOL, work rules, etc. will be. It is the other way around.


If we are only replicating what other regionals got before us, then why do we have so many things that are better?

I don't agree with your argument. So, we'll have to agree to disagree.

Does the market dictate lying to you? Does the market dictate charging you for non rev travel? Does the market equate to a slow erosion of your current work rules? If so, then I stand corrected. You have things that are better because if you didn't, your pilot group would have organized a long time ago. You have what you have because of my/our fight. Skywest Inc. does not want a Union on the property because it represents you and your colleagues. It gives YOU some control. Checks and balances. You are replicating other Regionals + a slight increase due to no Union which = no control = Skywest Inc. happy. They are taking things away slowly. They will ride it out and give you and your pilot group exactly what it takes to not give up that control.

Trojan

 

[Ben Dover]

you can be a rep and support, or be a member of, the OC.

it is duplicitous and deceptive, however, to hide your support for one or the other until elected.

Mark is/was neither duplicitous or deceptive. The fact that you did not know where he stood before the election means you didn't bother to read his bio or personal webpage that he posted before the election. This is a problem with YOU, not Mark.

The very fact that such a junior person at the company, and one with no special credentials after their name (like the last two lawyers that got elected) should tell you it was no mistake that he was elected president. It should tell you that the garden variety voter was willing to pass on the more senior/experienced guys for someone they believed would send a message to managment and be accountable to the pilots.

 

[SkyNation]

I know Mark and knew where he stood. He is a good guy, we just disagree on what will serve this pilot group best. His intention is that SAPA be removed, thereby leaving the pilots with no choice for representation other than ALPA. This tactic is an 'end around' because Mark and the OC know that if they'd simply put it to a vote, that the majority would not vote for ALPA over our current structure. Removing our current structure makes it an easier fight for them, and since they haven't sold the majority on adopting a union mentality. this is their plan 'B.'